Does anyone feel that Asperger's is not an actual disorder?

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CuriousButDepressed
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22 Jul 2017, 12:15 am

What I mean by this is, what if the struggles those who were "suffering" from Asperger's had were merely the result of their own unique personality that presented strengths and weaknesses? So, if for example an Aspie had social difficulties and I was a therapist, I would refuse to diagnose them with Asperger's and instead would use therapies designed to improve their social skills without ever giving them a label. Do we label "neurotypicals" for their own unique weaknesses? Absolutely not, so why don't we simply see Asperger's as just another unique brain wiring and focus on helping the people with such personalities via psychological therapy and behavioral modification, rather than telling them they are suffering from a disorder, ruining their self-esteem, opening them up to abuse from ignorant morons who mock that is different and making them feel they'll never be good enough?

When we instead focus on helping a person overcome their weaknesses with therapy and not give them a label, they don't feel as if they are some sort of leper that can never fully fit into society. Anyone else feel that Asperger's does not actually exist and that "sufferers" simply have their own unique personality with strengths and weaknesses that deserve help, but not a label?



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22 Jul 2017, 12:48 am

It used to be thought that simply being Left Handed was a disorder that should be corrected. I guess even today some people still think Lefties should be corrected to being Right Hand Dominant. I think Left Handedness or 'The Left Hand Path' also used to be connected with the Occult by superstitious people and might still be by some.

I guess I'm just tossing this out and an example of a mainsteam population unwilling to accept a minor human variance and I think to some extent this might apply wanting to rope in Aspies into roles that don't come easily to them.

As for it being a disorder that people suffer from, in some cases I think that is actually true, but I also think the suffering is unnecessarily exaggerated by the mainstream population.



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22 Jul 2017, 12:50 pm

CuriousButDepressed wrote:
What I mean by this is, what if the struggles those who were "suffering" from Asperger's had were merely the result of their own unique personality that presented strengths and weaknesses?

Well a "unique" personality can also be something that causes suffering—that's called a personality disorder. So "unique personality" isn't a good alternative to "suffering" or "disorder."

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So, if for example an Aspie had social difficulties and I was a therapist, I would refuse to diagnose them with Asperger's and instead would use therapies designed to improve their social skills without ever giving them a label.

Then you would potentially make it difficult for them to get accommodations and services. What would you do if they couldn't cope, even with your therapies? They'd still be disabled and need a diagnosis.

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Absolutely not, so why don't we simply see Asperger's as just another unique brain wiring and focus on helping the people with such personalities via psychological therapy and behavioral modification

People already do that. It's called ABA and some autistic people think it is torture. Therapy may work better, but only with some symptoms. You can't get rid of sensory sensitivity and the urge to stim with therapy.

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, rather than telling them they are suffering from a disorder,

Is telling them that they suffer from unacceptable behavior or an unacceptable personality better? Because that's what therapy and behavioral modification imply. You can't treat anything without implying that there is a problem.

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ruining their self-esteem, opening them up to abuse from ignorant morons who mock that is different and making them feel they'll never be good enough?

Not everyone diagnosed with AS is vulnerable to decreased self-esteem. AS diagnoses can be kept private and aren't likely to lead to abuse, but a diagnosis can protect people from abuse. It's the visible autistic behavior that causes people to target people with AS, not their diagnoses.



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22 Jul 2017, 1:05 pm

CuriousButDepressed wrote:
What I mean by this is, what if the struggles those who were "suffering" from Asperger's had were merely the result of their own unique personality that presented strengths and weaknesses? So, if for example an Aspie had social difficulties and I was a therapist, I would refuse to diagnose them with Asperger's and instead would use therapies designed to improve their social skills without ever giving them a label. Do we label "neurotypicals" for their own unique weaknesses? Absolutely not, so why don't we simply see Asperger's as just another unique brain wiring and focus on helping the people with such personalities via psychological therapy and behavioral modification, rather than telling them they are suffering from a disorder, ruining their self-esteem, opening them up to abuse from ignorant morons who mock that is different and making them feel they'll never be good enough?

When we instead focus on helping a person overcome their weaknesses with therapy and not give them a label, they don't feel as if they are some sort of leper that can never fully fit into society. Anyone else feel that Asperger's does not actually exist and that "sufferers" simply have their own unique personality with strengths and weaknesses that deserve help, but not a label?


I used to have this same thinking as a teen after reading about AS and then I felt it was only diagnosed if the kid is having troubles fitting in and is weird and kids have negative thoughts about that person and is mean to them and because they won't let them play with them or hang out or let them talk so they make it be the victim's fault and give them that label.

But Asperger's is only diagnosed if it causes the person a significant impairment and makes it hard for them to function, not because of other people. If someone just had poor social skills and all they needed was coaching to learn to use them, they would not have Asperger's. Plus AS is more than social skills and personality.

Also doctors already do do that what you already described, they do that with people who are "difficult" and they also teach the parents how to parent their child differently who is "difficult." Difficult is just a word some doctors use on a child who is between normal and having a disorder like ADHD or autism or sensory processing disorder. There is The Difficult Child by Stanley Turecki and The Challenging Child and I forget who wrote that book.

Stanley Turecki believes someone can be eccentric and have poor social skills and still not have that disorder. he seems to be one of those doctors who doesn't do labels but instead focuses on problems a child has and work with them on that and help their parents to how to raise them based on how their brain is wired and their personality.

If someone with AS is only having problems because of other people not accepting them, then they wouldn't really have AS and it's just everyone else's fault around them, not them. If someone with AS thinks they don't have a disorder and their problem is only with people not being accepting, then either they don't really have it or they lack self awareness of their own disability or it's extreme denial there. I even think some aspies don't believe in their own disorder and think it only has a name because doctors gave it a label for those who are different and think different and are unique and eccentric. So therefore they probably don't think it's real. Some posts I have seen online by those who say AS doesn't exist and it's a BS diagnoses, I sometimes they have it but are in denial because of things they are saying about themselves so I think they probably have it. I call them denaspies.

Plus I have seen some posts here by members who have accidentally found therapists who didn't do labels so they would fire them and go to another therapist. Of course doctors who don't do labels, they still know disorders exist but what it means is they focus on your issues first and try and work with them before placing a label on you and labeling is the last resort. I remember a post a couple years back by someone who was seeing one of these therapists and finally they gave them the autism diagnoses explaining he or she doesn't do labels sometimes you need to do them after you have tried helping someone and they are still struggling.


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22 Jul 2017, 1:25 pm

Yes, I agree with the original post. I like when it is simply considered a 'different brain that processes things differently' and not as a disorder. Honestly a lot of the traits I've seen listed when I've researched women with Aspergers are super similar to Highly Sensitive People. Or at least those are the traits I have. And a lot of the supportive texts I've read about introverts suggest that at this time in history, starting in the early 1900s with the boom of big business, is the 'extrovert ideal'. Therefore, many people are seeking to be strong! and loud! or whatever it is that goes with big business....and the traits of sensitivity and such are often seen as weakness or even it is taken as far as calling it a pathology, the way shyness is seen.



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22 Jul 2017, 1:46 pm

Disease? No. Disorder? Yes. :lol: Denying that fact means denying the 'cursed' sides of autism.

I'm an aspie without anxiety. Without depression. No form of psychiatric illness or disorder. No form of apraxia, or even any form of LD. No comorbidity at all! And a non-sufferer. While surrounded by people whom I could get away with oddity without the need to mask.

Yet all and all that, I do not deny that Asperger's is a disorder. :lol:
AS is more than just the oddity and personality. More than just circumstances.
NTs -- they're just following what their culture dictates, what they thought is 'right', and being human -- they usually do not understand. And are not ready for it.

The lack of comorbidity, the need for accommodate, or state of suffering doesn't change the fact that my reactions are different. My preferences are different. My senses are different. My theory of mind is different. And some few things like the voice, sleeping disorder, crappy penmanship... Those -- I could afford. And I have the energy to do more things after transition, after years of full time work -- without exhaustion, without being overwhelmed.

But it also doesn't change the unreliability of my short term memory and working memory, along with difficulties of multitasking. My misperceptions and mistranslations that translates to misunderstandings. My emotions and how I control them, and take them. My aptitude gap between my verbal ability from the rest. My occasional lack of awareness.
My 'limit' is just not easy to reach. I happened not to cry over or break down on my mistakes and failures. Unless under specific circumstances, I won't blame anyone on it either.

I don't cry over the chaos of what the people, the environment, or my own body would bring -- I take them.


Even with all the curses that annoys the crap out of me on daily basis, I'm still an aspie. Still autistic.


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22 Jul 2017, 1:57 pm

When you have debilitating pronounced autism like I have, you don't question it being a disorder.



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22 Jul 2017, 2:00 pm

I don't know. Is a disfigured person who still has abled arms and legs really disfigured, or just built differently?


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22 Jul 2017, 2:10 pm

People can not seem to get their heads around that Aspergers is both an impairing disability and a human variant in a similar vein to being black.

If Aspergers were accepted as a difference not a disability the lives of many of not most aspies would be better, a lot better in ways in which we can not imagine. But there would be significant problems also. As a human variant very few taxpayers would want to pay for services, therapies, and accommodations. There would be no reason for the aspie not to be expected and expect themselves to just deal with it. As a person who lived decades in a world where Asperger traits were considered flawed personality traits, I experienced enough of the problems not to want to go back there.


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22 Jul 2017, 2:32 pm

CuriousButDepressed wrote:
What I mean by this is, what if the struggles those who were "suffering" from Asperger's had were merely the result of their own unique personality that presented strengths and weaknesses?[/quo

Look, I grew up in the 1960s, when there was only one "label," it was for kids with obvious Downs Syndrome and it was called RE*ARD. There was no other label.

If you didn't qualify as a RE*ARD, you were classified as normal (even if you weren't), and expected to function just like all the "normal" kids. If you couldn't, then you were either STUPID or just WEIRD. Those weren't official designations, of course, just ugly things people called you when YOUR OWN UNIQUE PERSONALITY WAS WEAK AND FLAWED. :(

In other words, you were just a FREAK because you weren't "trying hard enough" to fit in. And the "therapy" you got for that was called "WHAT THE F**K IS WRONG WITH YOU!?" which was screamed at you early and often by parents, teachers, teammates, coaches and later employers.

No Autism, no Dyslexia, no ADHD, just "WHAT THE F**K IS WRONG WITH YOU!?" And that's what we grew up with - something was wrong with us, but nobody ever told us what it was, or that there was anyone else like us, or that it even had a name - because it's name was YOUR NAME. Whatever was wrong, was YOU. We didn't HAVE a disorder - we WERE the disorder. There was nothing wrong with your BRAIN, there was something wrong with WHO YOU WERE. Try to imagine what that does to a child's self-image, to be told that, day in and day out, year after year. :oops:

By the time you're a teenager, being excluded from, and ignored by, your peers is the norm. At least on the days when they aren't beating you up or making fun of you.


CuriousButDepressed wrote:
So, if for example an Aspie had social difficulties and I was a therapist, I would refuse to diagnose them with Asperger's and instead would use therapies designed to improve their social skills without ever giving them a label.


So you'd do it the old-fashioned way, tell them they need to change WHO THEY ARE ('cause there's no diagnostic label for it), and then you'd set out to rewire the way their own DNA has programmed their brain. That's exactly what my dad used to do, except he did it with a swift kick in the pants and by loudly exclaiming "IDJIT!".

CuriousButDepressed wrote:
Do we label "neurotypicals" for their own unique weaknesses? Absolutely not, so why don't we simply see Asperger's as just another unique brain wiring and focus on helping the people with such personalities via psychological therapy and behavioral modification, rather than telling them they are suffering from a disorder, ruining their self-esteem, opening them up to abuse from ignorant morons who mock that is different and making them feel they'll never be good enough?


Don't you get it? By telling them there is no label and they just need to CHANGE because they're DIFFERENT, you are mocking their differences. Neurotypicals don't have a UNIQUE brain-wiring - that's why it's called TYPICAL. It's the MAJORITY. Autistic people are a small subset that comprises a fraction of the overall population - statistically, that's called an ANOMALY, because it's NOT NORMAL. An abnormal quality that makes functioning difficult is a HANDICAP, also known as a DISABILITY. There's no shame in calling it what it is, because it's not the disabled person's FAULT.

Don't you see? If there's no label for it and every little autistic snowflake is malfunctioning at life simply because of their personal "uniqueness," then it's ultimately THEIR FAULT, and if they can't change through a sheer effort of will, to become what YOU think they ought to be, then that is THEIR FAILURE.

On the other hand, when you acknowledge that while they are a small portion of the population, there ARE others like them, and their oddities are the result of PHYSICAL brain structure, over which they have little to no conscious control, then you acknowledge that they have a DISABILITY, and their strangeness is NOT THEIR FAULT. That's far more honest, and far less damaging to an individual's self-image.

You wouldn't tell a Little Person that their small stature was simply the result of their "not trying hard enough" to get taller.

You've got to stop thinking of Autism as a "Label." My condition is not a label - it's a scientific EXPLANATION.

I have a DISABILITY - and no amount of forced "behavioral therapy" is going to change the way my brain is wired, so stop trying to pretend I can control my DNA. This ain't Hogwarts.


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22 Jul 2017, 2:58 pm

I've been having sort of a low-level dispute with my family over whether or not Aspeger's is real or not. Basically, they know about it, but seem to accept the whole concept of it in a broad or abstract sense, but are more selective when I talk about the possible of me being an aspie or not (awaiting test results). To them, it's not real if it affects how I get things done if I'm working around someone else's ideas of rules or routine, or if it explains how I pursue special interests. But it's real to them when they see problems with executive functioning and possible excuses they can use to try to meddle in my personal life. Basically, they see Asperger's or other conditions as real when there a lot of restrictions one has to endure but not real if the person with the condition can deal with it on their own terms.



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22 Jul 2017, 3:57 pm

will@rd wrote:
CuriousButDepressed wrote:
What I mean by this is, what if the struggles those who were "suffering" from Asperger's had were merely the result of their own unique personality that presented strengths and weaknesses?


OoOOoOooh, this youthful nonsense makes me so want to smack you in the mouth. :evil:

Look, I grew up in the 1960s, when there was only one "label," it was for kids with obvious Downs Syndrome and it was called RE*ARD. There was no other label.

If you didn't qualify as a RE*ARD, you were classified as normal (even if you weren't), and expected to function just like all the "normal" kids. If you couldn't, then you were either STUPID or just WEIRD. Those weren't official designations, of course, just ugly things people called you when YOUR OWN UNIQUE PERSONALITY WAS WEAK AND FLAWED. :(

In other words, you were just a FREAK because you weren't "trying hard enough" to fit in. And the "therapy" you got for that was called "WHAT THE F**K IS WRONG WITH YOU!?" which was screamed at you early and often by parents, teachers, teammates, coaches and later employers.

No Autism, no Dyslexia, no ADHD, just "WHAT THE F**K IS WRONG WITH YOU!?" And that's what we grew up with - something was wrong with us, but nobody ever told us what it was, or that there was anyone else like us, or that it even had a name - because it's name was YOUR NAME. Whatever was wrong, was YOU. We didn't HAVE a disorder - we WERE the disorder. There was nothing wrong with your BRAIN, there was something wrong with WHO YOU WERE. Try to imagine what that does to a child's self-image, to be told that, day in and day out, year after year. :oops:

By the time you're a teenager, being excluded from, and ignored by, your peers is the norm. At least on the days when they aren't beating you up or making fun of you.


CuriousButDepressed wrote:
So, if for example an Aspie had social difficulties and I was a therapist, I would refuse to diagnose them with Asperger's and instead would use therapies designed to improve their social skills without ever giving them a label.


So you'd do it the old-fashioned way, tell them they need to change WHO THEY ARE ('cause there's no diagnostic label for it), and then you'd set out to rewire the way their own DNA has programmed their brain. That's exactly what my dad used to do, except he did it with a swift kick in the pants and by loudly exclaiming "IDJIT!".

CuriousButDepressed wrote:
Do we label "neurotypicals" for their own unique weaknesses? Absolutely not, so why don't we simply see Asperger's as just another unique brain wiring and focus on helping the people with such personalities via psychological therapy and behavioral modification, rather than telling them they are suffering from a disorder, ruining their self-esteem, opening them up to abuse from ignorant morons who mock that is different and making them feel they'll never be good enough?


Don't you get it? By telling them there is no label and they just need to CHANGE because they're DIFFERENT, you are mocking their differences. Neurotypicals don't have a UNIQUE brain-wiring - that's why it's called TYPICAL. It's the MAJORITY. Autistic people are a small subset that comprises a fraction of the overall population - statistically, that's called an ANOMALY, because it's NOT NORMAL. An abnormal quality that makes functioning difficult is a HANDICAP, also known as a DISABILITY. There's no shame in calling it what it is, because it's not the disabled person's FAULT.

Don't you see? If there's no label for it and every little autistic snowflake is malfunctioning at life simply because of their personal "uniqueness," then it's ultimately THEIR FAULT, and if they can't change through a sheer effort of will, to become what YOU think they ought to be, then that is THEIR FAILURE.

On the other hand, when you acknowledge that while they are a small portion of the population, there ARE others like them, and their oddities are the result of PHYSICAL brain structure, over which they have little to no conscious control, then you acknowledge that they have a DISABILITY, and their strangeness is NOT THEIR FAULT. That's far more honest, and far less damaging to an individual's self-image.

You wouldn't tell a Little Person that their small stature was simply the result of their "not trying hard enough" to get taller.

You've got to stop thinking of Autism as a "Label." My condition is not a label - it's a scientific EXPLANATION.

I have a DISABILITY - and no amount of forced "behavioral therapy" is going to change the way my brain is wired, so stop trying to pretend I can control my DNA. This ain't Hogwarts.


Not once did I imply that you could control your DNA. It is not your fault if you have certain behavioral traits and just because you attempt to overcome certain ones via therapy, doesn't mean you'll necessarily succeed initially, or even at all. People who are diagnosed as Aspies are not ret*d and it enrages me to see them branched with people who have severe intellectual disabilities.

As for the type of therapy I advocate, I should have been more clear. I think that people who are often unfairly diagnosed as being "Aspies" should not have to entirely repress their personalities. What therapists should teach them is how to basically BS to people who have different brain wirings so that they can manipulate situations to their liking, but that they can ultimately be themselves with the people they are closest to and who will not judge them for who they are.

I absolutely do not advocate that we return to the days where people with certain brain wirings were told to "get over" their personalities or be physically abused for being who they were. Personality traits require significant work to change and forcing someone to adapt immediately never will help. Again, I advocate for psychological services for those who's personality traits are troubling them in any sort of way. This is not a matter of simply "bucking up" or getting over anything. People with certain personalities that have their own strengths and weaknesses deserve compassion and understanding, as well as useful strategies to help them function better in life.

It's not a black and white issue to help others modify some of their personality traits or work on their weaknesses while in public specifically. In private, provided you aren't harming anyone, you should be free to be yourself. Therapists in this scenario would basically teach people with certain personality weaknesses how to fake it for other people. By weakness, I don't mean it's something that these people can control, they can't. All of us have weaknesses and we all need help from competent professionals to overcome them.

There is no "normal". People will all have their own strengths and weaknesses, even the alleged "neurotypicals". To me, there's no such thing as a neurotypical. Some people have naturally great social skills, others need help working on theirs. Some are great athletes, some not so much. Like I said, I agree that we can't just tell these people to become better instantly, but we can help them improve over time without attributing their unique strengths and weaknesses as being the result of a disability.

Think about this. Suppose you identify a mole on your shoulder and you have absolutely no idea what it's called. Something about that mole is causing problems for you, so you decide to go to a doctor to get treatment. The doctor usually knows how to handle the problem, so they give some sort of treatment to get rid of the mole or at least shrink it. Did he need to use a label? Absolutely not. Just as a person who's concerned about their social skills would go to a therapist to get help improving them without needing to be needlessly told that they're some sort of disabled, inferior being.

Basically, if you can help a suffering person without outing them as being "always different" or "disabled" why bother doing so?



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22 Jul 2017, 4:06 pm

CuriousButDepressed wrote:
.................What therapists should teach them is how to basically BS to people who have different brain wirings so that they can manipulate situations to their liking. ...........

.................Therapists in this scenario would basically teach people with certain personality weaknesses how to fake it for other people. ...........



Isn't this basically what some Aspie's do anyway 'trying to pass' , 'wearing a mask' 'being a chameleon' ( or whatever it's called ) and as a consequence can suffer.


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22 Jul 2017, 4:12 pm

SaveFerris wrote:
CuriousButDepressed wrote:
.................What therapists should teach them is how to basically BS to people who have different brain wirings so that they can manipulate situations to their liking. ...........

.................Therapists in this scenario would basically teach people with certain personality weaknesses how to fake it for other people. ...........



Isn't this basically what some Aspie's do anyway 'trying to pass' , 'wearing a mask' 'being a chameleon' ( or whatever it's called ) and as a consequence can suffer.


Inevitably, people with certain personalities are going to suffer no matter what they do when they're around other people, since certain personality types are not compatible with one another. People with certain personalities/strengths/weaknesses will tend to get along better with similar people, so they don't have to always conceal who they are. Sometimes your only choice is the lesser of the two evils and if one becomes really good at bullshitting to people who are different/ignorant/close-minded, they will function better.



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22 Jul 2017, 4:31 pm

The issue I see with your argument is that it's essentially a tautology. Everyone has "unique brain wiring," even neurotypicals. Therefore, while it may be a true statement, it's not a helpful one. Psychological labels (e.g., Asperger's, autism, ADD/ADHD, schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, etc.) have pros and cons. Obviously, some people may have a self-esteem issue after getting diagnosed as "not normal". I went through a bit of an existential crisis myself - "Is everything in my life going to feel like a freaking chore?". Labels, though, are helpful in the sense that they direct people to resources that are likely to be both relevant and helpful. If we abandon all nomenclature in psychology, then I think you'd lose the sense of community that people draw on to help them cope with their various issues. Moreover, the majority of people are not going to seek out a licensed professional to give them professional, personalized advice. So, I predict that you'd have a lot more people who'd feel confused and isolated as a result, which I do not think is a good thing.



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22 Jul 2017, 5:01 pm

13quant13 wrote:
The issue I see with your argument is that it's essentially a tautology. Everyone has "unique brain wiring," even neurotypicals.

If everyone has unique brain wiring, what is the meaning of this word "neurotypical" that you are using?

Either some people have neurology that is somehow unique, or the word "neurotypical" has no meaning. There can't be any typical neurology if everyone has unique neurology...or can there?