Do you consider NVLD to be part of the Autistic Spectrum?

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oki this question has been lingering in my head for a while so i figured i'd ask now before my head explodes...

do you think nonverbal learning disorder is part of the spectrum or
it doesn't exist on its own, it's a different side to AS

It's closely related--as closely as, say, a bobcat and a Persian. Whether you say they are "in the same category" depends on the size of your category--whether you choose the group of "domestic cats" or "felines".

We know they're in the same "vicinity" of the neurological terrain. The crucial question: Are there people who can be diagnosed with NVLD, but not with any PDD? Are there people who can be diagnosed with a PDD, but not with NVLD? If both are true, then they are related but distinct conditions. If only one is true, then one is a subtype of the other. If every person with NVLD can also be diagnosed with a PDD, and vice versa, then they are the same thing, and either a new category of PDD or a symptom of some or all PDDs.

Part of the "spectrum" of disorders (not a linear spectrum based on severity).

Callista,

Your questions are true. People can have a PDD and also NVLD (up to 80% of people with AS have NVLD too), but the other 20% with AS don't have NVLD (these people are probably closer to Autism, but that's me speculating). People can "just" have NVLD.

yes its so hard to say where line goes

nvld?

Ack no. Guys - it's not up to us to delineate these things. It's possible to have one w/o the other. If one's first diagnosed w/ NVLD, then with AS, it's likely the NVLD aspects are all explained by the AS. Technically it would become one diagnosis - AS. Kind of like ADHD - I wish I could find the article I saw on diagnosing, written by a doctor for doctors.

Both NVLD & AS are PDDs and thus share lots of similar issues, but NVLD is NOT an autistic spectrum disorder.


http://www.nldline.com/as_vs_nld.htm

sorry, but what is nvld?
did i miss something here?
how come you know what is being discussed, has it been written somewhere and i have missed it?

NVLD IS earily like AS, and AS has basically most of NVLD as possible symptoms.

http://www.autismsite.ca/html/as___nvld.html

Page 18 on http://www.awares.org/pkgs_files/librarydoc_435.ppt says NVLD is ASD!

http://www.pediatricneurology.com/autism.htm

According to that, if not for the fact that I have some mental visual ability(I DOUBT the average NVLD person is that bad), DO have spatial abilities, and understand concepts better than math, I would probably very likely have NVLD. I have ALL the other symptoms, that aren't associated with that and possibly the IQ difference.

I really DO wish I could see into other persons heads! So many CLAIM to have photographic memories, but FLUNK simple tests to prove even the simplest such ability. With ME, I guess I see the picture almost like I see without my glasses, or in the periphery.

ok thanks

My sons diagonsis was told and says in his report Non Verbal Learning Disorder and overlaps with features of AS!

So I ask Attwood!

Hi Tony
A few people have ask me this and not 100% on answer, would be great full if you could help. "Is Non Verbal Learning Disorder on the Autism Spectrum or not!"
Regards Alyson

Dear Alyson
Thanks for the message:Non Verbal Learning Disorder has many characteristics similar to Asperger's syndrome, however, it is not in the official diagnostic text book namely the Diagnostical and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Some of the practical strategies used for Non Verbal Learning Disorder are appropriate for those with Asperger's syndrome and vice versa.
Best Wishes Tony Attwood

Here is an interesting academic paper which argues that nonverbal learning disorder, dyslogia, semantic pragmatic disorder, etc. are basically alternate, or related, designations for Asperger's. (Other researchers have made similar arguments.) In effect, the writers are suggesting that they are Asperger's seen from different perspectives and, sometimes, fields:
http://apt.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/7/4/310

NVLD is determined by neuropsychological testing, whereas Asperger’s is determined by detailed history and observation. There is great overlap in these two conditions—perhaps due to co-morbidity; or perhaps, as some authors feel, they are essentially the same condition but labeled by different specialties. However, Asperger’s is most primarily notable for not appearing interested in forming human bonds. [The degree to which Asperger’s kids actually are painfully aware of their trouble making bonds is debated in the literature. Nevertheless, they typically appear uninterested.] NVLD kids, though, do typically appear interested in human bonds--even though they may be clueless how to actually achieve them successfully. Additionally, children with Asperger’s more typically have diminished “symbolic play” than in NVLD. For example, the toy school bus is a box that rolls, rather than something that little plastic figures climb into.

From a previous WP comment:"So, how about this for a gross oversimplification? NVLD kids recognize that you exist while they miss the subtext of what you are saying. Asperger’s kids appear behind a plane of glass as they miss the subtext of what you are saying."

References: Sue Thompson’s article NVLD at http://www.nldontheweb.org/thompson-1.htm

I think NLD is a cousin to AS and the other ASDs, but I don't consider it to be part of the autistic spectrum. Although I don't consider myself NT, I likewise definitely do not consider myself autistic.

However, I consider it close enough to the ASDs that when I attended last year's autism conference at Penn State, I registered as an individual with an ASD, rather than as a professional, since the fact of my NLD was my reason for attending (I wasn't considering working with autistic kids at that point)- plus it was $100 cheaper that way, and a guy with AS I know who spoke at the conference said NLD was close enough that I could claim the cheaper fee.

Even the experts don't agree on the relationship between NLD and AS (kind of like HFA and AS). People here are just having fun speculating, and are only expressing their personal opinions.

the only thing am know about it is other WPers saying it a mild version of aspergers,if it fits the triad of impairments then see it as on the spectrum.
if BAP is thought to be on the spectrum then NVLD should be.

NLD actually does not fit the autistic triad of impairment, and NLDers are not known to have difficulty with "theory of mind". As someone else also mentioned, NLDers also don't usually have problems with imaginative play. The problems with social interaction seem to be mainly based in perceptual problems. NLD kind of has its own triad of impairment, as follows:

(1) motor skills, (2) social skills, (3) visual perception

Our visual and spatial perception tend to be very poor, and visual-motor coordination and visual memory are also very impaired. Difficulty with visual processing makes it difficult to interpret nonverbal communication. There are some other associated perceptual problems as well.

I was diagnosed with NLD, but I think that's because I went to someone who specialized in learning disorders. I'm pretty sure I could also be diagnosed with AS, except for the fact that I "fake normal" pretty well. I think NLD definitely fits on the autistic spectrum. I understand some peoples' hesitation about being labeled as autistic, but it's helped me, personally, to better understand myself. But really, no one knows the answer to this question. The lines are so blurry, and I don't even know if it's possible for them to ever be clarified. I'm no expert, but I think it's definitely possible that AS and NLD could be the exact same thing. So some people have spatial abilities and some don't, so what? I think it might be wise to just combine the 2, and acknowledge that there is a great deal of variation between any individuals.

I have NVLD and I have problems with empathy, "theory of mind", and imagination. I think it really just depends on the person. Are doctors even sure themselves if NVLD is a PDD or on the autistic spectrum?