Schizoid vs Asperger's

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I've been crawling through the DSM manuals looking for answers for myself since I was 14, and we were still on DSM-III. I'm 43 now and have seen over 30 therapists over the years, and the Asperger's with alexithymia diagnosis fits very well though it had to be suggested by me 10 years ago to the doctor, of course, (the ineptitude in the therapeutic community has long been a pet peeve and a source of disgust for me) and then the neurological testing followed and confirmed it, but as I am fascinated by psychology since it is such a subjective science (even those two words together strike me so hard as an oxymoron!) that I wonder how "I", if I were a doctor, WOULD distinguish between schizoid personality disorder versus asperger's/high functioning autism (I realize Asperger's is no longer "officially" used but as there a greater general understanding of the term amongst the general population and what it entails, I prefer to use it in non-clinical settings for ease of understanding.)

Anyone know (or have any thoughts) on HOW you distinguish between the two and what criteria differentiate them? I'm not quite clear on it and just worked my third 12-hour night shift in 3 days so I'm exhausted and really fuzzy, drinking my 3rd beer since I am now off for 5 days and not on call, so I honestly don't have the comprehension to go search the internet or medical journals, and I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of others anyway, particularly those with a layman's knowledge at least of psychology (i.e. you know what schizoid personality disorder is and do not think it's schizophrenia!)

Thank you in advance for any replies. Best regards to you all!

Wikipedia has a short entry about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_ ... _diagnosis

That was interesting, but these "differences" were generalized and not accurate to my (admittedly) untrained eye that is going by a large sample of "anecdotal" evidence from the internet and my own experience, but oddly I DID find two very interesting articles, one of which suggests the same thing I have suspected for YEARS...

...that "schizoid" and "Asperger's" ARE the same thing. Bear with me! Psychology is a subjective science that can only make hypotheses (NOT proofs) by observation in numbers which is basically "anecdotal" evidence, no better or worse than what I can offer, and I've always been bothered by this and wondered if the two were the same. Apparently I am not the only one to have noticed this and wondered if it was the same, and we were just playing a game of semantics as psychology loves to do.

I can't sleep and am still drinking so I used my Google machine and found some interesting things here. (I am currently seeking to find these "researchers" and their studies to learn more!)

Quote:

"As for a diagnosis switching between Aspergers and Schizoid PD, it seems to be a fairly common occurrence. A book about Aspergers published in 2007 that I found on our bookshelf says that some researchers believe Aspergers and Schizoid PD might be the same thing. This article by Barbara Nichols from October 2013 talks about the differences but also says some believe Schizoid PD may be on the autism spectrum. The controversy continues. (The nifty diagram (with teeny-tiny print) at the top of this post was taken from this article)."

Full article here: https://climbingthecindercone.com/2014/ ... -disorder/

Google if you are interested, but it just hit me right now SO hard that the DSM looks scientific but is not. This is just speculation on their part with all these definitions, and anytime there are deviances, psychology can just say "everyone is different". The labels can help us personally learn more about ourselves but they are ultimately subjective and meaningless unless used for insurance purposes. The labels are so broad and undefined unless you accept one source as more accurate than another since none of them have "proven" anything with a scientific method and are just offering personal definitions and theories.

This was interesting to think about, but I think I have figured out now what I was originally curious about and resolved this to my own satisfaction, though of course any other thoughts are still welcome!

I was diagnosed with autism at age 3; schizoid Personality Disorder at age 15.

You’re an ER nurse. You willingly interact with people and you’ve quite good at it when it’s needed.

I don’t sense the “schizoid” within you.

I only interact with people at work. I enjoy my patients and my staff but I tend not to go out during the week as I need the "down-time" (i.e. stay in the back bedroom and read a lot or occasionally surf the net if I am "up" to that much interaction, lol.) and I do not get invited places anyway even if I should be wish to be, and I do not as most places are too noisy and crowded. Every loves M., the nurse, and I am never in the middle of drama but I also share only the most trivial personal details, and I am never invited out with others or confided in personally which is good because I do not wish to hear staff drama at work when patient care is why we are there. Oh well. It doesn't matter. Everything is subjective. I've gotten good in a pinch because I study people and have put a lot of effort into it and read a LOT of books and even then that's very limited on what I can and do and when and how often. You seem to know me quite well after less than 20 posts, and who knows what different people may be able to "sense" online. It is indeed fascinating.

I will never explain myself well and I used to write, but now I REALLY want to buy myself an old Nikon with 35mm film where I can SHOW things and NOT have to try (and inevitably fail) to explain anything so if my brother does not buy the camera for Christmas, I am buying it myself. I had "hinted" but that was stupid as he does not know what I specifically need so I am going to log off now and call him to tell him just to send me an Amazon card and not worry about the camera as I will be VERY picky about that, and it would be better to just buy it myself off Amazon so it is exactly what I want and will be used. I would rather just SHOW things and not have to try to explain. Words are just not working for me the way they used to.

A lot of (I'd say most) "medical" diagnosis are matters of opinion.

If you went to your GP with pain and certain symptoms they will have an opinion as to what the cause is. If they consider it serious enough they will refer you to a specialist for a second opinion. If the second person agrees they you may require an operation. Till then no one knows for sure.

If it is just a case of tablets - then take these for X days and if the problem doesn't go away come back. Till then they don't know for sure.

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Last edited by League_Girl on 03 Dec 2017, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I once noticed the similarities between the two diagnoses, and even wondered what the difference was. After surfing the internet and a few psychology books, I asked my mom (she is a psychiatric care provider). She told me the same thing that I gathered from my research, I will elaborate in the next paragraph.

One of the differences is one’s age when characteristics manefest. Personality Disorders are rarely diagnosed before the late teens and early twenties simply by standard protocol. A personality isn’t fully developed in the brain until this age and any persistent characteristics before this age usually don’t lead a psychiatric provider to think personality disorder (perhaps a developing PD though). A personality is dependent upon the brain and something cannot be a true personality disorder unless it is coming from a fully developed brain. The brain fully develops around the age minimum that psychiatric providers start to consider PDs.

Autism Spectrum Disorders are developmental disorders and can be diagnosed as early as the toddler years depending on when symptoms arise. In ASDs there is strong reason to believe that there is a genetic factor. There are many physical characteristics more common in Autistics than in the general population such as hypermobility and prosopagnosia or face-blindness (prosopagnosia has to do with brain structure). There is a higher percentage of hypermobility in Autistics than in the rest of the population. Hypermobility usually leaves one with varying degrees of impaired motor skills. Prosopagnosia is also more common among Autistics than the GP. While these are not indicators of an ASD, they are more common. One can be hypermobile/face-blind without an ASD, just like one can have an ASD without one these or either of these. Because of the more common less common deal, it supports the whole “ASD is genetic” deal.

Let’s pretend for a moment that ASD has been proven genetic. The ASD allele sits very close to the allele for hypermobility, and the allele for hypermobility sits very close to the prosopagnosia allele. These linked genes explain how they are often inherited together. When the chromatids cross, these alleles are so close together, they are very often kept together. Alright back to reality, ASD is now back to ‘theoretically genetic’, but you can see how the data makes the most sense if ASD is genetic.

In conclusion, a Personality Disorder is developed. They can be avoided, and are more likely to arise when a child is raised in a toxic environment (not literally toxic or they probably wouldn’t make it to the age of PD diagnosis). An Autism Spectrum Disorder affects how one develops not a result of how one developed. If it could be avoided, then all the parents who tried to ‘discipline’ autism out of their child would have been successful. If you are displaying the symptoms that are present in both Schizoid/Avoidant PD and ASD as an adult, this is the reason you are asked about your childhood behavior and tendencies. These ultimately decide the difference in your diagnosis.
____________________________________
Side Note: you can have ASD and a PD
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I apologize for the ‘novel’.

Wow, 3 people posted in the time it took me to write that, I must be a slow writer.

I've said this before, but the differences between Aspergers, High-Functioning Autism, OCD, GAD, Schizoid Personality disorder for many sufferers' exist only in the mind of clinicians. I have a diagnosis for two of these from different people. It makes no difference to me what you call them. It just means I'm in a minority neurotribe. I suspect that these labels are just slightly different symptoms of the same underlying problem.

Save the witches, you aren't the only person to think that SPD and AS is the same thing. IIRC psychiatrist Sula Wolff thought they should be combined.

When I first started looking into AS, SPD was another thing I looked into, and a lot of the DSM 4 criteria fit me. Here is the that criteria, for those unaware:

The only thing I personally don't have on the A part is the "including being part of a family" of A (1), and "(4) takes pleasure in few, if any, activities". I have always loved and enjoyed my immediate family and I have always enjoyed my interests, special interests and obsessions.

Of course DSM 4 claimed that SPD could not occur with a PDD, so it could only allow for one of them.

I too have had thoughts that they maybe they should have been one thing.

Oh, and I agree that it's mostly speculation and not science. It changes every few years when they think they have made new connections or disconnections.

Even worse is how poorly even the majority of the professionals seem to understand us and how they talk among themselves instead of going to the source - us. They know what we do, but not why. The why matters.
The why is why I see many aspects about myself as a difference and incompatibility rather than disability. Not all but some of it is about thinking differently and reacting differently. Don't get me started lol!

I don't see why it's not easy to distinguish between them in the general case: they have different diagnostic criteria and one is present very early in life while the other is developed.

It is specific individual cases (such as a person with crossover symptoms), I think, that makes the distinction complicated.

You can be “schizoid” without being autistic, and vice versa.

It’s not difficult to distinguish the two when the autism is “classical.” It’s a bit more difficult when the autism is more “Aspergian” in nature

Not all people with autism exhibit the desire for isolation and social reluctance which is found in Schizoid Personality Disorder. Rather than reluctance, awkwardness, with the desire for social discourse, is experienced. Some people with autism are even extroverted.

Many people with Schizoid Personality Disorder do not exhibit the social awkwardness and sensory issues found in autism. Nor problems with proprioception or “clumsiness.” Nor a “nonverbal learning Disorder.” They just don’t have an impending desire for social discourse.

I’ve been diagnosed with both.

Schizoid is very different from schizotypal in terms of personality disorders

Before I was diagnosed with Asperger's (> 4 years ago), I wondered whether I would be diagnosed with Asperger's, Schizoid, Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Social Anxiety, ...

I was pretty certain I would get diagnosed with Schizoid -- because I remember at a very early age -- making a concerted effort to be emotionally detached. I think, primarily because I was socially isolated/awkward. And I didn't want others to realize how different I was. I had these hopes that something would "click" and I would somehow "grow out of it". Well, that never happened.

After my diagnosis, in the follow-up with the Psychologist who diagnosed me, I asked why I wasn't diagnosed with Schizoid PD or Avoidant PD or Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. The Psychologist told me that I was nothing like another of her patients who had Schizoid PD. While I did display some tendencies associated with Avoidance PD, they were nowhere near severe enough. While I did have some obsessive compulsive tendencies, the Psychologist attributed this to Asperger's (need for routine/control). It was not a Personality Disorder.

I agree with the sentiment in this thread. That this diagnosis stuff is quite subjective (and, perhaps, more pseudoscience than science).

It has been my strong belief that John Forbes Nash Jr., the brilliant mathematician featured in the Hollywood movie "A Beautiful Mind" with Russell Crowe, was misdiagnosed as being paranoid schizophrenic when in actual fact, I believe he had Asperger's Syndrome.

If you look closely at the movie, many of the mannerisms displayed are strongly indicative of High Functioning Autism, AKA, Asperger's Syndrome. I also say that because throughout his entire life whether he was taking his medication or not, Nash has always maintained that he never actually saw anyone that didn't actually exist.

Now as far as the human representations of the three individuals that he supposedly hallucinated, I don't think that actually happened and I believe that was simply an elaborate visual representation by Hollywood filmakers to explain his very active and vivid imagination, of which Aspies and Autistics are widely known to have. Even Nash himself maintained that he never actually saw anyone like real Schizoids do. And even the great Tony Attwood, the Australian expert on Asperger's Syndrome, stated in his book that Autistics do have a "mild level of paranoia" and this would explain the paranoia aspect of Nash.

Nash's social inadequacies, his physical incoordination, his very high intelligence of which I'm guessing his IQ was around the 160 to 180 range, his vivid imagination, his ability to visualize complex shapes, patterns and mathematical formulae, his repetitive motions and the strictness of his routines especially visiting the library all the time at Princeton and his lack of empathy are all indicative of typical Asperger's behaviours.

I mean for crying out loud it even showed Nash having a full-blown meltdown at Princeton of which everyone in these forums knows full well what they look like.

Now I don't claim to have a degree in Psychology but if anyone wants to see the greatest misdiagnosis of schizophrenia when it should have been Aspergers Syndrome, then watch A Beautiful Mind.