General Question About AS *People*

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A little bit of my family history has been discussed in another thread. In short - I'm 37 years old - and have an older brother that has been diagnosed as having AS. Just having the diagnosis has been helpful in understanding a lot of things in our family dynamics (especially between my brother and I) over the course of our growing up.

However, I will say that a lot of my questions are un-resolved, at least on an emotional level. To be honest - I love the guy - but I don't like him. It seems to me that he makes it impossible to like him. My brother and I have never had a good relationship - which he will tell you about at length given any opportunity. Every conversation is fraught with tales of the horrible things I did when I was 15 years old (over 30 years ago) - like sneaking out of the house to hang out with friends - listening to Beatles records until 1AM - etc. It seems that our relationship was caught in a rut over 30 years ago - and with him it's remained constant.

As a result of our relationship - I have a hard time having a frank and honest discussion with him about things. I'd like to understand - but it seems that I'm "walking on eggshells" - and if I touch upon anything personal - it blows up.

...and I'll be honest. I've got a certain amount of resentment built up as a result of 37 years of that. AS or not - I think my brother's an as*hole. I really wish I could get past that - but I really can't. Every time that I tell him that I love him, and have it followed up 20 minutes later by him explaining to my wife (or whoever may listen) that they don't understand what a dick I really am because they didn't get subjected to the "Beatles onslaught" 30 years ago - just really kinda wrecks any forward momentum for me.

I'd like to understand - but unfortunately I can't find out from him. We just don't have that kind of relationship.

So - in in the interests of understanding - I'd like to ask a few questions. Based upon my history with AS (my brother) I'm not anticipating this will go well. However - I keep reading that AS people appreciate bluntness and frank discussion - so I'm going to try to be as blunt as possible.

Simply put - it's my perception that Aspies are neurotically self-obsessed to the point where it makes any kind of real empathy or human interaction impossible. After all, if every thought is consumed by worry about how others are perceiving you - how can you separate yourself for a moment to really venture a guess into what's going on in someone else's mind? When you compound that with negative feelings of persecution - it creates a genuine lack of interest (and almost contempt) for what the other person is experiencing.

To the bulk of the world - and I'll admit to me as well - the lack of empathy for others with a tinge of contempt just reeks of utter and complete selfishness and narcissism. That leads me to think that in the case of Aspies, it's a case of the chicken and the egg. Which came first? Did the perceived intolerance of others create the distaste you have for the world - or is the "intolerance" a result of what the world perceives as being the Aspies utter selfishness and complete self-absorption? All of the talk of how the rest of humanity sucks, all of the nervous personal preening, the lack of eye contact, etc...to me it all reeks of needless and intense self scrutiny that has gone seriously awry.

Bluntly put, that's how I see it. I may be right, I may be wrong, but all of my experience with my brother over 37 years leads me to that conclusion. I'd like your input on that - to fill in the blanks where I might be missing it.

Now, here is the biggest thing for me...

Do Aspies experience the feeling of gratitude? I'm not talking about whether or not you have the emotional or personal skills to express it. Expressing something properly, and feeling it, are two different things. I'm interested in what's going on internally. Do Aspies *experience* gratitude? Do Aspies appreciate the efforts of others - which makes their lives as they know it possible - and do they experience gratitude as a result of it?

Let's see how this goes...lol Like I said - I always hear that Aspies appreciate bluntness. Let's hope that it's not just "one-sided" bluntness - in essence using their infirmity as a license to be as direct as possible - but unable to appreciate it in return

LOL seems like you've already got your own answer ready.
I experience grattitude, enjoy social contact, don't hold grudges.
I think everyone is different.
I used to be a bit selfish, antisocial etc but grew over those behaviours.
I think his situation is a product of his life and being dissapointed in society.
In short life has let him down.

He just needs to get out into the crowd more often to realize how nice people are, and what life has to offer.

Well, you are describing one relationship you have had with one Aspie. Hardly a cross-section.

It's hard to address your points because you start out by defining what you think are Aspie traits. It's like someone coming up to you wanting to know why you killed that lady on the corner last night. "what?"

As far as your last question, which seems easy enough to address. Gratitude can be broken into two issues.
1)We all have different ideas of what we feel gratitude for. No doubt the things I feel thankful for are different than the average person. For one, I do for people because I want to. I don't live for the social "tit for tat". Many people act out of "kindness" for it to be returned. Turn that around and I don't necessarily feel obligated to thank someone for something they did for me. Not to mention the ass-kissing people usually expect.

2)We express things differently, so we may be "happy" or "excited" inside but not showing on the outside. This makes people think we are not feeling anything. Sometimes our reactions are delayed.

well i would have to say yes. i recently got accepted for ssi and i was extremely happy. me and my brother dont get along either, mostly i think he acts like dog the bounty hunter. and hes overwight, but hes got his own problems. so i'll leave him alone

I must admit that I personally hold grudges, but even though my views on people are pretty persisent, I do review them now and then, the only thing I don't do is let a single action swing my view very much either way. It is definitely an autistic trait not to be that interested in changing one's perception of someone after having been sufficiently exposed to the person to form an opinion, but the case you describe seems a lot more rigid than I've ever been personally.

By the way - you obviously mean 20 years, not 30.

I myself experience and to some extent display gratitude, but I strive to be as self-sufficient as possible, so it's rare that I ever need any help. To be honest, I can sometimes get a bit annoyed when someone thinks I need help with something when I really don't - I suppose that might be seen as lacking gratitude.

Him recalling what happened over 20 years ago sounds a little like an excuse for not wanting a relationship though, or I simply don't understand him. I've personally pretended to have autistic reasons for not wanting to be with someone or attending something, when that wasn't the real reason, something along the lines of "watching that TV show means so much to me so I can't attend".

I've found it hard to change how I view or respond to people I've known since I've been a child though, it's like one's protocol for a certain individual is established in one's youth, and any change to that gets me uneasy. I've never been able to talk adult matters with my dad for example, since I interpreted the amusement my surroundings showed when I was interested in girls as if it was something wrong.

Half your questions are pretty silly though.
Do aspies experience grattitude ? are we like aliens or something ?! !! !!
What's next? do aspies feel pain ?
Remember your talking about human beings.

My dad is still mad about some no big whoop things that happened to him 73 years ago! I never thought about him having asperger's. Could that be an aspie trait to hold a grudge for over 70 years? I don't hold those type of grudges even though I was treated badly at age 5 by a number of kids. They were kids. Kids are stupid. So why can't he let go? Hmm, something to think about. He had one sister with bipolar, and one with aspergers who was called The Professor from the age of 4 on. I have asperger's, one daughter has autism, one son has asperger's.
I'm sorry you have such a hard time with your brother. When you say, "I'm sorry I bothered you so much when we were kids. Do you think we could start over?" what does he say?

omg me and my real dad dont talk because hes a "recovering drug addict" hes like in his 40's and still lives with his sister haha, when i went out there when i was 18, the first thing he said was he thought i was going to turn out ret*d, because i was in fetal distress for 10 minutes when i was born, then he dropped me off at his sisters house at the time he didnt live there but now he does

One thing I have to say is that I think AS can act as a sort of amplifier for certain personalities. You have AS isssues (which can vary quite a bit from person to person) then you have the general personality. If a person is inclined to be a jerk then the AS can cause them to be even more bitter and troublesome.

I am not sure if I have AS or not, but in general I think I do. I think AS can experience gratitude... the problem is expressing it in a way that people will actually understand.

I think the contempt for society comes as a result of being disapointed in the way the world works. I grew up thinking everything works exactly how I expected it to in my head. When I started to learn otherwise, and that it was actually completely different to what I was expecting... I couldn't help but feel a little bitter. Especially when the way I thought it worked made complete sense to me. And it can be easy to blame it all on family, since they are the ones that could help you understand. Its easy to think if things were just different, your life could be different.

I think as you get older, if nothing changes, this feeling can grow and be really hard to go away.

When I actually understood and realised that people act differently the bitterness goes away. I use this knowledge to help me understand people, to interpret what they are doing in their own terms... instead of filtering it through my head where it makes no sense.

I'll admit that it is hard to empathize with people. When people are just going off emotionally, it doesn't effect me that much. But if there is a problem that I can understand then I want to help. But if you are so bitter that you hate like the society and world that is so different than you, then you really don't want to help anyone but yourself... even if you could help.

Don't know if this helped... considering how old your brother is... this will be really hard to change I think.

Thanks for the response

Yeah, I'll grant you that a lot of people do things in a "tit for tat" manner. I, also, disapprove of that sort of thing. I've never believed that one ought to do something with the expectation that it will be returned - or to indebt the other person to them. I can see how you interpreted it that way - but looking back on it perhaps I wasn't clear enough on what I was getting at.

When I talk about gratitude, it's more of an esoteric concept...encompassing a lot of different things. Maybe it would be best if I gave an example.

There are 3 siblings in my family. When the impending deaths of my parents started becoming apparent - we started to find out how my parents intended to disburse the estate. Basically - the oldest sibling was going to get shafted - and my brother and I would receive the lions share of everything. To me, that seemed implicitly unfair. I won't go into all of the details as to why they decided that - but based upon my subjective interpretations of "right and wrong" - I decided that I didn't want to be a part of that. I think that ideally - there are 3 children - the estate should be divided into thirds.

I talked to my brother about it - and told him that I intended to figure out the portion that I would receive if it *had* been split into thirds - and give my sister the excess. I told him that it was completely up to him whether or not he wanted to do that - but that I intended to - because I didn't believe the folks were right in what they were doing.

So far as I can tell, he has no intention of doing this. Fine. But ya know, it does make me wonder about character, and whether or not there's any sort of respect for others going on in his mind. Is there gratitude? Well, he lived with mom and dad for 40 years, and they did much more for him than for the rest of us...and never once did I hear a "thank you" for it...or see any gesture that he appreciated what they were doing for him. God forbid - you threatened to take it away. In his eyes that was not acceptable...so it isn't like he was apathetic or ambivalent about his living situation. He expected it to continue as it was. But - the recognition that things "didn't just happen" - and that the nice house that he lived in (and expected) didn't just miraculously appear...or get bestowed upon our family by some chance of luck - seemed to elude him. He never expressed any kind of appreciation toward my father for all of the real work that was involved in granting him the living situation he was accustomed to.

Then you compound that by what's going on at the end...which seems almost like some sort of selfish sense of entitlement...being perfectly willing to see a sibling get shafted...to me it just reeks of nothing but "take take take".

That's why I asked what I did. From what I've read about Aspies - it seems that they are socially hindered... So fine... I'll grant that the ability to communicate something or express it can be quite separate from what someone actually feels. Maybe he just can't express it. But ya know, I wonder, do they feel it?

...or are they just selfish as hell?

It's a shame about your relationship with your brother. Have you considered that his relating childhood experiances involving you are a form of 'small talk' to him? He may not consider that you find this hurtfull. As for gratitude, that is a personal perception. I feel gratitude as in 'great, thanx' but may not necessarily show this apart from normal politeness; he however may not register this even, as many aspies don't have resource for any empathy, its part of the condition, not because he's being an as*hole. To summarise, its nothing personal It sounds that he does in fact have some intense trouble with AS, it can be quite disabling, even if this doesn't appear to be the case. Maybe you should tell him how you feel, in plain, but tactfull terms how you are affected by his actions, but are still there for him, and don't expect him to be eternaly gratefull for this if he has no capacity for it

Yeah, I'm thinking that's about the best I can do. I just has unresolved emotional issues with it, as you can tell Thank you for the response.

I know it's just me...but I wish I could have a more fulfilling relationship with him.

lol - yeah - my bad. I apparently got on a roll and prematurely aged myself.



Good point



Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I think that lack of acceptance of change is something that impacts most people...and maybe it's just heightened with the autistic.

Food for thought.

Its not so much that we are obsessed with ourselves as that other people are irrelevant and unimportant. Not because we don't like people its just the way things are we are more aware than most people of the delineation between our own mind and body, and the outside world and how little control we have over the latter. Another person is an object occupying space in the vicinity that will move and communicate in completely unpredictable ways.. its kind of scary. We don't worry about how others perceive us unless we have a reason to want them to perceive us in a certain way otherwise it just doesn't matter. And its not that we don't care what other people are thinking and feeling its simply that we are acutely aware of our inability to accurately know what someone is thinking or feeling without being told directly and without similar experiences of our own to use as points of reference. Without the ability to understand what is the point of knowing?



Yeah it sucks that thats the way it appears.. but to us normal people appear selfish, shallow, intentionally irritating, and obsessed with pointless rituals. It works both ways don't forget.



Both. In the start we don't understand people and why they don't like us (they don't like us because we are different) as we get older we learn about why and by then we've usually already had many horrible experiences due to peoples intolerance and misunderstanding. Its our experience that makes us dislike the world that dislikes us simply for being what we are. Its also partially our choice to remain jaded, cynical and cold.. to protect ourselves.



That may be how it appears but for us its no more unusual than your unfathomable desire to look people in the eye. The things you point out (except for the misanthropy mentioned in the first line) are not decisions we've made or the result of trauma they are symptoms of a physical condition.. no more controllable than the vocalizations of a person with tourettes or the shaking of a person with muscular sclerosis.



On an intellectual level most certainly. On an emotional level that varies from person to person. Myself unless its something major or unexpected I don't feel anything. As another has said its uncommon for us to be concerned about doing things for others in order to receive gratitude so we don't tend to put much importance in giving gratitude when someone does something for us especially when they do it to try to make us indebted in some way. (ex: "I made your bed for you so take the trash out for me?" "Thanks but I didn't ask you to").



No its most certainly a two way street.. being vague and beating around the bush only confuses and frustrates us. Talk to us like we talk to others and we'll get along just fine.

As for your brother.. keep in mind that we can be very sensitive contrary to popular belief.. our emotions may be unusual in direction or intensity but we do have them. Your brother probably still remembers and brings up these incidents because they were traumatic and painful for him on a level you aren't appreciating. Sometimes a snide remark made in jest can be misinterpreted and feel as painful as physical violence. If you are still dismissing them as trivial matters as I can assume you are its no wonder.

Hes may still be waiting for you to understand how deeply he was hurt. If thats the case though the damage was already done long ago so you cant change much now except to see if you can move past it. In many ways it seems like his bringing these things up is a test hes giving you to see if your someone he can trust to get close to him again.

Have you tried taking the "I know I was a horrible brother who wasn't very considerate of you or how the things I took for granted may have made your life difficult but I want to understand and listen now" approach? Or are you still hung up on indignantly defending yourself from his "blowing things out of proportion", "being unreasonable", and "acting like an as*hole"?

Last edited by Fraya on 05 Jun 2007, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In the context what I'm talking about - I think it's a perfectly legitimate question. All that I, or anyone else, have to go by is behavior. As I explained in another portion of this thread - his behavior to me shows that he's completely willing to take, for a period of 40 years, without a single effort to express gratitude. That is so far out of the norm, as I understand it, that it leaves me wondering "Does he feel it"?

If I pinch him, and he goes "ouch", clearly he experiences pain. If he were comatose, and I pinched him until he was black and blue, I would be left wondering if he actually feels it. Same thing here.

Nope, I'm obsessed with things, hobbies, things I need to do, or other people at times, obsessing about myself comes in almost dead last.



The "distaste" in my case is not about how the world has perceived me...but a bit of a cumulative effect from over 30 years of being teased, ridiculed, and just basically being made to look like a total a$$ by others because I didn't act or meet up to their expectations of how I should "be".

When I was younger, I wanted to fit in somewhere...being unable to do so, and failing pretty miserably at times... I was very self-conscious thinking if I could just do the "right" things the "right" way I could achieve that goal.

At 40 I no longer care how the world "perceives me"...I don't really have a "distaste" for it either, I just tend to avoid it at times. I am living "my life"...."my way"...it may not be way others think it should be...but it's mine and I'm happy with it.







Yes we experience gratitude. I have experienced gratitude for many things in life, although I may not show it, or if I do it may not be in an obvious way.