Penelope Trunk’s female aspergers “test”
ASPartOfMe
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Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,846
Location: Long Island, New York
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2018/08/23/the-test-to-see-if-a-girl-or-woman-has-asperger-syndrome/
The best way to figure out if a woman or girl has Aspergers is to think in terms of categorizing people on a spectrum. On one end of the spectrum are super-social cheerleader fun-fun types whose emotional intelligence is super high. On the other end of the spectrum are the Albert Einstein types with very low emotional intelligence. Next to Albert Einstein types are typical males and next to typical males are typical females and then come the cheerleaders.
In this spectrum, Albert Einstein has Aspergers. And generally, when we wonder if someone has Aspergers, we compare that person to Einstein. (Or Sheldon on Big Bang theory or whoever your benchmark is.) Everyone else is somewhere on the spectrum either one, two, or three steps removed from the terrible emotional intelligence of someone with Aspergers.
But that picture only works for diagnosing men or boys with Aspergers. Women don’t function like men who have Aspergers. Women with Aspergers function like typical men. A way to think about this is that Aspergers shifts you down the spectrum one spot, to the next group. (This is called the extreme male brain theory of autism it is widely accepted.)
Standing out from the other girls. “The only girl to…” is a common refrain. Or taking classes with all boys. Being an outlier for gender is risk factor for Aspergers. Do not judge a girl by how similar she is to boys with Aspergers. Look at how similar she is to other girls. The conflict between autism spectrum conditions and traditional feminine identity is the biggest clue we have when it comes to diagnosis. For example, I have vivid grade-school memories of being the only girl to play kickball at recess. Every day.
Good at math. This means good at math compared to other girls. The president of Harvard said the outstanding mathematicians are usually men. He is not wrong. Math and autism go together. So it makes sense that girls with Aspergers will be as good at math as math-smart neurotypical boys. And the boys with Aspergers will be the math gods.
Anxiety disorder. Unlike boys, girls with Aspergers can camouflage when they are younger. And people are likely to say their daughter is “a little different but totally fine”. But we need to redefine what it “totally fine,” because camouflage gets increasingly difficult as girls age: first it becomes a exhausting, and then it becomes an anxiety disorder. My life is 100 times more manageable because I take medicine for anxiety, and this is true of most women with Aspergers.
Eating disorder. Most eating disorders emerge as an extension of a sensory processing disorder and/or OCD. Both these disorders are common for people on the autistic spectrum. But eating disorders are especially prevalent in girls with Aspergers. Even as we are under diagnosing girls with Aspergers, we know 20% of girls with eating disorders have Aspergers.
ADD or ADHD. Girls with Aspergers don’t look like they have ADD because they look like neurotypical boys. Even the teachers miss it. But look at attention levels compared to other girls. Most girls have longer attention spans than boys do. It’s not until puberty that boys catch up. Girls who look like they are “just being kids” are not okay. Girls need to look like they are “just being girls”.
Hyperlexia. Most girls with Aspergers love to read. Learning to read at age 2 or 3 is often a sign of hyperlexia. It’s related to Aspergers and it comes from a fascination with letters and puzzles rather than a love of stories. My son was in a classroom of autistic 3 year olds who could all read, and the classroom did not have any books with words because at that age the brain needs to develop social-skills patterning instead.
Dyslexia. Re-reading books, and reading series books are ways girls with Aspergers deal with dyslexia. Dyslexia, often means you can read but comprehension is low, and girls with Aspergers mask that with a high IQ at school and easy books at home. I was in honors classes but I read children’s picture books throughout high school.
Gender dysphoria. Studies show a high occurrence of gender disorder in autistic populations. For girls with Aspergers this issue is especially prevalent because thinking like neurotypical boys is already happening via Aspergers.
Refusal to cross the midline. This is walking before you crawl. In an older kid it looks like being clumsy. Or maybe impressively clumsy which we mistakenly label ambidextrous. Or it looks like having perfect posture, which looks awkward in a boy, but almost ballerina-like in a girl so people overlook it.
Sexually abused as a child or teen. Girls with Aspergers do not read danger signs as well as neurotypical girls, which makes girls with Aspergers much more likely to get into a situation that is bad for them. While the girl with Aspergers will think she’s acting within the realm of normal, a predator looking for a target will see the abnormality as an inviting sign.
Work in the sex industry. Understanding sexual norms is a social skill. Feeling embarrassment is also a social skill. So the sex industry doesn’t feel as emotional risky to women who have Aspergers. Also, its easier to get the unofficial list of social rules in the sex industry than it is in a typical workplace. In my first book I wrote about how I tried to be a sex worker, and now I understand that I couldn’t get someone to hire me because I never looked like I understood the rules.
Having mother or paternal grandmother with these traits. Or having a mother who is white, college educated and raising children alone – that is, did not remarry after the loss of a partner. (Only 2% of white, college educated women get divorced, but pretty much all moms except those with Aspergers find a new partner after a divorce.)
Having a weird laugh. Women laugh more than men. And for women laughter is a way to identify themselves as good partners. It’s a social skill. Women with Aspergers have a hard time figuring out how to use a laugh; often they choose not to laugh or they laugh in a stilted or uncomfortable way.
This test contains some truthful elements and some generalizations. A lot of known autism co morbids are listed. A lot of these traits also occur with a bunch of other conditions. This is a checklist that can be a preliminary step for suspecting aspergers. Claiming more especially that it is some sort of definitive test is irresponsible.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
The best way to figure out if a woman or girl has Aspergers is to think in terms of categorizing people on a spectrum. On one end of the spectrum are super-social cheerleader fun-fun types whose emotional intelligence is super high. On the other end of the spectrum are the Albert Einstein types with very low emotional intelligence. Next to Albert Einstein types are typical males and next to typical males are typical females and then come the cheerleaders.
In this spectrum, Albert Einstein has Aspergers. And generally, when we wonder if someone has Aspergers, we compare that person to Einstein. (Or Sheldon on Big Bang theory or whoever your benchmark is.) Everyone else is somewhere on the spectrum either one, two, or three steps removed from the terrible emotional intelligence of someone with Aspergers.
But that picture only works for diagnosing men or boys with Aspergers. Women don’t function like men who have Aspergers. Women with Aspergers function like typical men. A way to think about this is that Aspergers shifts you down the spectrum one spot, to the next group. (This is called the extreme male brain theory of autism it is widely accepted.)
Standing out from the other girls. “The only girl to…” is a common refrain. Or taking classes with all boys. Being an outlier for gender is risk factor for Aspergers. Do not judge a girl by how similar she is to boys with Aspergers. Look at how similar she is to other girls. The conflict between autism spectrum conditions and traditional feminine identity is the biggest clue we have when it comes to diagnosis. For example, I have vivid grade-school memories of being the only girl to play kickball at recess. Every day.
Good at math. This means good at math compared to other girls. The president of Harvard said the outstanding mathematicians are usually men. He is not wrong. Math and autism go together. So it makes sense that girls with Aspergers will be as good at math as math-smart neurotypical boys. And the boys with Aspergers will be the math gods.
Anxiety disorder. Unlike boys, girls with Aspergers can camouflage when they are younger. And people are likely to say their daughter is “a little different but totally fine”. But we need to redefine what it “totally fine,” because camouflage gets increasingly difficult as girls age: first it becomes a exhausting, and then it becomes an anxiety disorder. My life is 100 times more manageable because I take medicine for anxiety, and this is true of most women with Aspergers.
Eating disorder. Most eating disorders emerge as an extension of a sensory processing disorder and/or OCD. Both these disorders are common for people on the autistic spectrum. But eating disorders are especially prevalent in girls with Aspergers. Even as we are under diagnosing girls with Aspergers, we know 20% of girls with eating disorders have Aspergers.
ADD or ADHD. Girls with Aspergers don’t look like they have ADD because they look like neurotypical boys. Even the teachers miss it. But look at attention levels compared to other girls. Most girls have longer attention spans than boys do. It’s not until puberty that boys catch up. Girls who look like they are “just being kids” are not okay. Girls need to look like they are “just being girls”.
Hyperlexia. Most girls with Aspergers love to read. Learning to read at age 2 or 3 is often a sign of hyperlexia. It’s related to Aspergers and it comes from a fascination with letters and puzzles rather than a love of stories. My son was in a classroom of autistic 3 year olds who could all read, and the classroom did not have any books with words because at that age the brain needs to develop social-skills patterning instead.
Dyslexia. Re-reading books, and reading series books are ways girls with Aspergers deal with dyslexia. Dyslexia, often means you can read but comprehension is low, and girls with Aspergers mask that with a high IQ at school and easy books at home. I was in honors classes but I read children’s picture books throughout high school.
Gender dysphoria. Studies show a high occurrence of gender disorder in autistic populations. For girls with Aspergers this issue is especially prevalent because thinking like neurotypical boys is already happening via Aspergers.
Refusal to cross the midline. This is walking before you crawl. In an older kid it looks like being clumsy. Or maybe impressively clumsy which we mistakenly label ambidextrous. Or it looks like having perfect posture, which looks awkward in a boy, but almost ballerina-like in a girl so people overlook it.
Sexually abused as a child or teen. Girls with Aspergers do not read danger signs as well as neurotypical girls, which makes girls with Aspergers much more likely to get into a situation that is bad for them. While the girl with Aspergers will think she’s acting within the realm of normal, a predator looking for a target will see the abnormality as an inviting sign.
Work in the sex industry. Understanding sexual norms is a social skill. Feeling embarrassment is also a social skill. So the sex industry doesn’t feel as emotional risky to women who have Aspergers. Also, its easier to get the unofficial list of social rules in the sex industry than it is in a typical workplace. In my first book I wrote about how I tried to be a sex worker, and now I understand that I couldn’t get someone to hire me because I never looked like I understood the rules.
Having mother or paternal grandmother with these traits. Or having a mother who is white, college educated and raising children alone – that is, did not remarry after the loss of a partner. (Only 2% of white, college educated women get divorced, but pretty much all moms except those with Aspergers find a new partner after a divorce.)
Having a weird laugh. Women laugh more than men. And for women laughter is a way to identify themselves as good partners. It’s a social skill. Women with Aspergers have a hard time figuring out how to use a laugh; often they choose not to laugh or they laugh in a stilted or uncomfortable way.
This test contains some truthful elements and some generalizations. A lot of known autism co morbids are listed. A lot of these traits also occur with a bunch of other conditions. This is a checklist that can be a preliminary step for suspecting aspergers. Claiming more especially that it is some sort of definitive test is irresponsible.
I have one objection and that is the idea that females are not quite as good at math as males are. It's just not true. Females don't become famous mathematicians at the same rate or a comparable rate as males partially because they get discouraged easier and they it is not their interest or they do not place as much significance on it.
There may very well be females out there who would have gone on to solve some of the most complicated mathematical problems but got discouraged by a B- in calc II or would rather spend their time scrapbooking or raising kids or watching makeup tutorials on youtube.
One of my grandmothers was an arithmetic savant but has no clue that what she could do waa special...she thought everyone could figure out that stuff in their head...and I don't think she ever had any academic aspirations. She married young and had many children and spent her younger years as a typical home maker. I discovered her number abilities when we were standing in K-Mart one day and they were having sale and she very nonchalantly computed the final cost of a triple discounted item in her head plus tax.
Many people do not often recognize their gifts and to rise through the ranks of academia often takes some sense of self importance or prestige.
I'd flunk this preliminary test. And I'm officially diagnosed as a child.
In another life, where I might've been undiagnosed and/or no acceptance, I'd be still in denial and confirms that denial than disproving it.
The test isn't good with those who lacks significant comorbidity.
But then again, an aspie without a significant comorbidity isn't common either.
Yet the me in another life might have a significant comorbidity, but still flunk and remain in denial anyway.
It's either narrow or incomplete. The latter most likely.
How about the other aptitudes other than verbal comprehension and math?
Other circumstances? From what I know, the author is more of a fortunate kind.
Other preferences?
Not to mention identity vs culture...
Depression isn't mentioned. So is burnout. Which is somehow important that the author mentioned suicide rates, and are tied to masking and anxiety.
Was the anxiety category specific or does include other anxiety related conditions?
How about misdiagnosis of another condition instead of comorbidity of said condition?
The sense of self and self esteem?
And so on, and so on...
Ah, like it mattered that I fuss about it. It could've written on a whim or with a lack of time and planning.
Should this the list improve? Well, I would like that.
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I'm female and DXed with autism....and this "test" doesn't describe me at all.
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The idea behind what she's trying to do is great but this has way too many generalizations to be taken seriously. I don't want to just be a critic though, cause this deserves serious consideration
Should women be diagnosed differently? I thought that the main issues concerning women were mainly pertaining to maturation and masking?
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Following my footsteps
Very little of this describes me. I didn't particularly stand out as the only girl to do something. My interests were very feminine. Only the intensity was higher.
I probably did have some degree of hyperlexia. I was very interested in books from a very early age.
I did walk without crawling a great deal as a baby. It is possible that I might have been a bit clumsy growing up.
For one thing, I suck at math.
A few things I take issue with:
Gender dysphoria. Studies show a high occurrence of gender disorder in autistic populations. For girls with Aspergers this issue is especially prevalent because thinking like neurotypical boys is already happening via Aspergers.
I feel Gender dysphoria in autistic people often has more to do with knowing you are different, but not fully knowing why. So it is more of an assumption. Autistic girls are still girls, and it isn't a matter of being like men, just being different from other girls.
Sexually abused as a child or teen. Girls with Aspergers do not read danger signs as well as neurotypical girls, which makes girls with Aspergers much more likely to get into a situation that is bad for them. While the girl with Aspergers will think she’s acting within the realm of normal, a predator looking for a target will see the abnormality as an inviting sign.
Work in the sex industry. Understanding sexual norms is a social skill. Feeling embarrassment is also a social skill. So the sex industry doesn’t feel as emotional risky to women who have Aspergers. Also, its easier to get the unofficial list of social rules in the sex industry than it is in a typical workplace. In my first book I wrote about how I tried to be a sex worker, and now I understand that I couldn’t get someone to hire me because I never looked like I understood the rules.
For the first of these too, being taken advantage of isn't the fault of autism and that is how that reads to me, for the second sex has to do with more than social norms. Personally, the idea of sex at all sounds gross and invasive to me, and working in the sex industry to me feels like people under valuing themselves.
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Diagnosed autistic level 2, ODD, anxiety, dyspraxic, essential tremors, depression (Doubted), CAPD, hyper mobility syndrome
Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia
As much as I'd like to say something positive about that blog post, I'm afraid that I cannot support that kind of "mission statement". It comes across more as a girl with the need to justify herself and show the world that she has a condition that makes her somewhat special in a way. Raising awareness, supporting others and offering a helping hand is beautiful and necessary but there are ways and ways to do all this. Taking the role of a knight on a crusade is the wrong attitude. Spilling whatever is in your head that you believe to be right as scientific fact, that's another wrong thing to do.
There's nothing good about that post. That's misinformation, immaturity and sentimentalism.
A lot of straight neurotypical girls can be tomboys.
I suck at maths.
I couldn't read until I was at least 6. But I was never really into reading, although I enjoyed writing when I got to about 9.
I do have ADHD but wasn't diagnosed with that until adulthood. I was diagnosed with AS in childhood.
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Female
Everything Penelope Trunk does is irresponsible.
I have been following her weird story for several years. She has created a niche for herself by making startling pronouncements about various things, backed up with little but her own personal experience.
More than that, she comes across as classically narcissistic, possibly with traits of borderline personality disorder. She's smart, but she's not as smart as she gives herself credit for. She has never shown any respect for psychology as a science, she's more into psychology as a hobby.
Please, please, people, don't pay attention to Penelope Trunk.
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A finger in every pie.
ASPartOfMe
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Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,846
Location: Long Island, New York
She claims to have been diagnosed
'I don't have an edit button': Twitter user Penelope Trunk on why she announced her miscarriage on the networking site
Penelope Trunk - Wikipedia
To me her neurology does not matter. It is the quality of the trait list and in what context the list is presented. People that incorrectly self diagnose can create a decent checklist, and correctly diagnosed can post up a poor list.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
ASPartOfMe, what I'd like to address first is that I don't want you to have the wrong idea which would be you thinking that I'm doing personal attacks on you or the blogger. I don't agree that her post can be useful and I can't see why I should change my mind.
She comes across as but an attention seeker if anything. It's true than she could be an aspie all the while being an attention seeker but that's not the point. Nothing that she wrote is reliable. It doesn't matter what credentials and authority people have when they are talking pish and trying to pass pish as something that should be stood for.
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