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Do you think the notion of a spectrum is useful?

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fez
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08 Feb 2019, 5:43 am

Just that really... interested to hear if people think the notion of a spectrum in relation to autism is a useful approach or not and what the key downsides might be?

Thanks.


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08 Feb 2019, 11:46 am

As opposed to what other concept?



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08 Feb 2019, 12:24 pm

My personal opinion on it (I’m not a professional) is that both the model of separate disorders and a spectrum are correct, in different ways. First of all, it is a spectrum in the sense that mild, moderate, and severe (or levels 1,2 and 3 if you want to go by the DSM-5) autism are all forms of the same disorder: autism. But that doesn’t mean we should get rid of the separate disorders, because Asperger’s, autistic disorder, CDD, and PDD-NOS are all distinct from each other, e.g. Asperger’s is relatively milder, CDD tends to be severe, etc. (There are also forms of autism associated with genetic disorders, like Rett Syndrome and Fragile X but whether those fall on the spectrum is debatable.) Finally, there’s almost a spectrum within each disorders, and the range of it depends on the disorder (e.g. if you have Asperger’s to a more severe extent, that still wouldn’t be as severe as severe autistic disorder). That’s just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


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fez
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08 Feb 2019, 12:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
As opposed to what other concept?


I guess as opposed to it just being ‘autism’.

Is the idea of a spectrum helpful? To me, and this might just be my inability to visualise it differently, it suggests a line with more autism one end and less the other. It also suggest that people with very different needs are lumped together under one banner. It also suggests that the end with less autism is somehow more like the allistic population. Also are non autistics also on a spectrum? Where some are closer to being autistic? One toe across the line?

Whilst I agree that some have a larger or smaller slice of autism, it feels like it is an either or scenario. It is like being pregnant or not.


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08 Feb 2019, 12:53 pm

Personally, I wish they would just call it autism. While it is a spectrum, the functioning labels are too subjective and people can function very differently in different environments.

People do like labels though, that's human nature. I don't like to see people using any label to say "i'm better than you" and I think NT's and even autistics do that too much.



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08 Feb 2019, 1:10 pm

MC1729 wrote:
My personal opinion on it (I’m not a professional) is that both the model of separate disorders and a spectrum are correct, in different ways. First of all, it is a spectrum in the sense that mild, moderate, and severe (or levels 1,2 and 3 if you want to go by the DSM-5) autism are all forms of the same disorder: autism. But that doesn’t mean we should get rid of the separate disorders, because Asperger’s, autistic disorder, CDD, and PDD-NOS are all distinct from each other, e.g. Asperger’s is relatively milder, CDD tends to be severe, etc. (There are also forms of autism associated with genetic disorders, like Rett Syndrome and Fragile X but whether those fall on the spectrum is debatable.) Finally, there’s almost a spectrum within each disorders, and the range of it depends on the disorder (e.g. if you have Asperger’s to a more severe extent, that still wouldn’t be as severe as severe autistic disorder). That’s just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


I'm glad someone brought up Fragile-X because so many people (NT or autistic) have never heard of this. I don't think it is on the autism spectrum but it does share some of the autism traits, and autism can occur with Fragile-X, but even without autism a person with Fragile-X aren't neurotypicals.


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08 Feb 2019, 1:30 pm

fez wrote:
Is the idea of a spectrum helpful? To me, and this might just be my inability to visualise it differently, it suggests a line with more autism one end and less the other. It also suggest that people with very different needs are lumped together under one banner. It also suggests that the end with less autism is somehow more like the allistic population. Also are non autistics also on a spectrum? Where some are closer to being autistic? One toe across the line?
Well, isn't all of that pretty accurate? And BAP would be where NTs are closest to autism.

I watched an aspie guy on YouTube more than 10 years ago, who said that Asperger's was like being half autistic and half not. That has al,ways made perfect sense to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgUjmeC-4o


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fez
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08 Feb 2019, 1:43 pm

Skilpadde wrote:
fez wrote:
Is the idea of a spectrum helpful? To me, and this might just be my inability to visualise it differently, it suggests a line with more autism one end and less the other. It also suggest that people with very different needs are lumped together under one banner. It also suggests that the end with less autism is somehow more like the allistic population. Also are non autistics also on a spectrum? Where some are closer to being autistic? One toe across the line?
Well, isn't all of that pretty accurate? And BAP would be where NTs are closest to autism.

I watched an aspie guy on YouTube more than 10 years ago, who said that Asperger's was like being half autistic and half not. That has al,ways made perfect sense to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgUjmeC-4o


I guesss maybe. Just trying to turn things inside out and figure out whether the notion of the spectrum is useful to autistics. Had someone telling me today it would be easier to say to a parent that one suspected their child had aspergers rather than autism. Struggled to get that but I guess the connotations of autism are still entirely different in people’s minds from aspergers.


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08 Feb 2019, 1:45 pm

^^ nice video thanks.


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fez
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08 Feb 2019, 1:48 pm

If that is the case does the line continue and is there another polar extreme? What is that then? Or is it true what people say that allistic people are all far more similar to eachother than autistic people are similar to eachother. Are allistic people just a huge lump after aspies in the middle?


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08 Feb 2019, 1:57 pm

MC1729 wrote:
My personal opinion on it (I’m not a professional) is that both the model of separate disorders and a spectrum are correct, in different ways. First of all, it is a spectrum in the sense that mild, moderate, and severe (or levels 1,2 and 3 if you want to go by the DSM-5) autism are all forms of the same disorder: autism. But that doesn’t mean we should get rid of the separate disorders, because Asperger’s, autistic disorder, CDD, and PDD-NOS are all distinct from each other, e.g. Asperger’s is relatively milder, CDD tends to be severe, etc. (There are also forms of autism associated with genetic disorders, like Rett Syndrome and Fragile X but whether those fall on the spectrum is debatable.) Finally, there’s almost a spectrum within each disorders, and the range of it depends on the disorder (e.g. if you have Asperger’s to a more severe extent, that still wouldn’t be as severe as severe autistic disorder). That’s just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


Hard to argue with this. The US is a big country, but it has subdivisions like "Nebraska". Likewise autism is continuum with folks with similar symptoms, but there are subdivisions and even sidebranches.



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08 Feb 2019, 2:10 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
MC1729 wrote:
My personal opinion on it (I’m not a professional) is that both the model of separate disorders and a spectrum are correct, in different ways. First of all, it is a spectrum in the sense that mild, moderate, and severe (or levels 1,2 and 3 if you want to go by the DSM-5) autism are all forms of the same disorder: autism. But that doesn’t mean we should get rid of the separate disorders, because Asperger’s, autistic disorder, CDD, and PDD-NOS are all distinct from each other, e.g. Asperger’s is relatively milder, CDD tends to be severe, etc. (There are also forms of autism associated with genetic disorders, like Rett Syndrome and Fragile X but whether those fall on the spectrum is debatable.) Finally, there’s almost a spectrum within each disorders, and the range of it depends on the disorder (e.g. if you have Asperger’s to a more severe extent, that still wouldn’t be as severe as severe autistic disorder). That’s just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


Hard to argue with this. The US is a big country, but it has subdivisions like "Nebraska". Likewise autism is continuum with folks with similar symptoms, but there are subdivisions and even sidebranches.


Ok but so if you go down this route, what is it that makes them all autism. What is the shared core and is it behavioural or neurological? Different neurology but similar articulation or similar pattern of neurology but with different behavioural outcomes?


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08 Feb 2019, 2:22 pm

fez wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
MC1729 wrote:
My personal opinion on it (I’m not a professional) is that both the model of separate disorders and a spectrum are correct, in different ways. First of all, it is a spectrum in the sense that mild, moderate, and severe (or levels 1,2 and 3 if you want to go by the DSM-5) autism are all forms of the same disorder: autism. But that doesn’t mean we should get rid of the separate disorders, because Asperger’s, autistic disorder, CDD, and PDD-NOS are all distinct from each other, e.g. Asperger’s is relatively milder, CDD tends to be severe, etc. (There are also forms of autism associated with genetic disorders, like Rett Syndrome and Fragile X but whether those fall on the spectrum is debatable.) Finally, there’s almost a spectrum within each disorders, and the range of it depends on the disorder (e.g. if you have Asperger’s to a more severe extent, that still wouldn’t be as severe as severe autistic disorder). That’s just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


Hard to argue with this. The US is a big country, but it has subdivisions like "Nebraska". Likewise autism is continuum with folks with similar symptoms, but there are subdivisions and even sidebranches.


Ok but so if you go down this route, what is it that makes them all autism. What is the shared core and is it behavioural or neurological? Different neurology but similar articulation or similar pattern of neurology but with different behavioural outcomes?

We are not advanced enough yet to really KNOW anything about a person's "neurology". Though they are making breakthroughs in that area about how autistics differ from NTs in things like how we don't trim our brain cell branches as often as they do. All we can go by is outer behavior. The commonality is being inward oriented, and failing to interact with others, and being impaired with social cues, and stuff like that.



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08 Feb 2019, 2:29 pm

^^ ok so in lieu of having a working theory of lack of pruning go with behavioural traits, but what if the commonality (e.g. the America that Nebraska is part of) is exactly the neurology resulting in entirely different instantations. Then it is hard to just lump people together because of supposed behavioural unity on the spectrum,no? Or am I missing something?


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08 Feb 2019, 2:35 pm

Think of autism as being like Spinal Bifida.

One person with Spinal Bifida may just have a small pigmented spot on the small of his/her back.

Another might be wheelchair-bound and profoundly intellectually disabled.

Both have Spinal Bifida.



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08 Feb 2019, 2:51 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Think of autism as being like Spinal Bifida.

One person with Spinal Bifida may just have a small pigmented spot on the small of his/her back.

Another might be wheelchair-bound and profoundly intellectually disabled.

Both have Spinal Bifida.


Whilst this makes sense... what we are basically saying in the case of autism is that we are unifying something by behavioural observations although the cause is neuro-cognitive as we don’t know enough about the neuro cognitive pattern yet to say exactly what links this group. It just feels weak as an argument. If the link is not essentially behavioural, right?


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