Really interesting concept

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I posted the following message on aspergia, but since they are gone now, I still want to get people's input on this idea . . .

My way of dealing with things is to read about them so when I got diagnosed with Asperger's I ordered like $150 in books and I got one called 'Autism and Sensing: The Unlost Instinct' by Donna Williams (who has apparently written quite a few books . . .

ANYWAY she suggests that one of the things that causes autism spectrum conditions is that we get hung up at various levels of relating to self that most people go through very early in life - there are three:
1) no self; no other (this is where I see traditional autistics)
2) all self/no other and/or all other/no self (this is where I think Asperger's falls)
3) simultaneous self-other (this is for NTs)

Now, the idea is that you can always move backwards on this list, but most NTs choose not to - what I really like about this theory, though, is that it explains so much to me - like one of the characteristics of the no self;no other stage is an ability to feel other people's emotions and just generally experience emotions in a way that other people can't - which is something I've experienced all my life . . . when someone I like to be around is upset it is almost like someone has hit me with something when they walk in the room . . .
Then the characteristics of the second stage REALLY fit me - and I don't get a lot of the third stage . . .

Now, this all sounds like one of those 'the problem with those people is that they never matured' theories - but she points out that the goal of most major religions is a return to the first stage (the whole 'interconnectedness of all life feeling) - so, bascially, we are more spiritually connected than NTs by nature . . .
What is also interesting about this is that the person who suggested that I be assessed for Asperger's said something similar - that she thinks I am more spiritually advanced than she can ever be . . .

Anyway, it is a neat book . . .

In thinking about this idea last night I realized that the second stage really describes me well - I'm either totally other oriented or totally self centered . . . I am either totally socially isolated or enjoying situations where I am someone other than myself (i.e. tattoos, teaching, being in structured social situations, etc . . . when I was younger this included some very destructive things like drinking and drugs but I've gotten over that) - and then I have the people I like to be around - and I'd do anything for them (I always have said I'd walk up to the gates of hell for a couple of them) but I have a huge amount of difficulty thinking they would cross the street for me . . . this seems to be a characteristic of this stage . . .
I also think this may explain the eye-contact thing - after all, when you look in someone's eyes you are forced to realize that they are seperate from you in a very basic way - this does not fit well with the all self/no other and all other/no self mind set . . .

However, the first stage explains very well the fact that I am able to sence the emotions of people - I think I've said this on this board before, but when one of the people I like to be around is sick or just not feeling right I can tell - to the point that one time my favorite person to be around was VERY sick and when he walked in the room it felt like someone had hit me physically . . . then another time I was getting used to medication and he came to visit me and gave me a hug and it was the same sensation only a positive energy toward me (this experience, by the way, has earned him the notable distinction of being the only person on earth that it is not painful to touch)

I'm really enjoying this book - I keep thinking 'Yes - that is me!'

sounds good- if I had the money I'd order it!
I know what you mean about the feeling that you'd been hit when you walk into the room containing a person who is upset- I tend to be so aware of it that it really affects my own mood and I get really annoyed if they say that nothing is wrong- because I know there is!

Yeah - and it is so funny - you want to grab them and say 'BS!! !! !' - but then sometimes it can be cool - I've had the experience of saying to someone that I like to be around that they are obviously upset and I just want to remind them they are important to me, etc . . . and had them get teary eyed - though they sometimes don't tell me what the problem was in the first place . . .
This also explains why I can feel people's emotions (only if I'm already close to them, I mean) over e-mail - after all, if we are talking about a spiritual connection the mode of communication wouldn't make sence . . .

Here is another really funny example of this - one of the people I like to be around sold my old house for me and one day he was showing it and called me to ask some questions and I could hear in his voice that these people he was showing it to were just about to drive him crazy - I couldn't tell you what I heard - it was just a feeling, of course, but I made a point of telling him how much I appreaciate him taking care of my house for me and then told him what he needed and hung up . . .
Well, when closed on the house we had a break while he was waiting on some paperwork or something and I said 'I really appreciate all of this - I know these people really put you through the ringer . . . ' and he turned around really angrily and shot this mean look at his secretary and said 'WHO told you that?!' and I said 'Don't blame her - you told me - when you called me the other week - your voice was all wrong . . .' and he just looked at me really strange - but I knew I was exactly right from his reaction . . .

Yes, I can usually tell from a person's tone of voice and/or demeanor if they are pretending to be happy and they're really angry or sad. It can feel overwhelming if it is someone I really care about and I'm not sure how to help them.

Donna Williams' all-self/no-other and all-other/no-self explained a lot for me too. A lot of how I've managed to hold a job and a boyfriend has been due to keeping myself in an all-other/no-self state - and it also explains why I would crash so hard into all-self/no-other the moment I got alone and safe. It's only this year that I've really started to teach myself how to handle a simultaneous self-other state and it typically sends me straight into overload. I've been lucky enough to find first a counsellor, then a spectrum support group, then a close NT friend, who have all been willing to tolerate me sliding into shutdown in their presence. And also, to listen to me and take me seriously when I ask them to tone down their presence in seemingly odd ways like holding a conversation with their back turned, or not minding if I carry out a conversation with my eyes closed.

I've had that weird emotional connection on occasion too. It seems to happen when two disappeared (my word for what Donna would call a nobody nowhere) people meet. In one of my college classes we had to present a proposal for a short film. One girl had a very abstract surreal storyboard. But the moment I saw it I knew she had been sexually abused (or some other traumatic loss of the body's innocence). The rest of the class seemed to have no idea what her film was about and she eventually dropped out of the class because her own mental blocks wouldn't let her explain the idea well enough to turn it into a feasible project. But I spoke to her later and learned that she'd been coerced into prostitution in Japan.

I don't think Donna's three stages are necessarily tied to maturity. I think they have more to do with overload. The root of an all-other/no-self state is because the direct emotional connection two NT's make when their eyes meet, they establish "emotional reciprocity", etc. is far too overwhelming for somebody on the spectrum. So we shut it down entirely (creating what looks like mind-blindness) or we shut off our own awareness of ourselves, so that we only have to experience the other's emotion without our own action/response. That also explains why we can sense emotion through email, online chat or forum posts. Without body language and eye contact to overwhelm the situation, we don't have to dampen our own senses, so we see things we might otherwise have been oblivious to.

The idea that all people on the spectrum are oblivious to emotional nuance is a myth.

I've had this strange experience with another AS person I've met, whereby if I'm talking to him, I seem to lose myself. He seems to draw me in and it is hard to break off the contact (which of course has to happen after a while). It's as if nobody else exists around us.

I wish I knew if he has this kind of effect on other people for I haven't noticed it and if it is something I'm imagining or if it is really true.

I agree with this. I too shut down in most envirements.
It was common when I cashiered at Quizno's I would
zone in this no/space? thing. I would gaze like a
person in a strange space, and this freaked the
customers.

It is also hard for NT's to understand sexual abuse
except for the occasional made-for-TV fictional
drama. They see the actress and actor, but
don't percieve the truth of it all. It is the
view of a autistic person, and put-down in
one way or another to grasp this. I don't
blame the girl for leaving that class.

Hmmmmm? Who was this friend who let you
do coping techniques? A College one, or outside
college?

It is true that posting online my feelings is easier
than speaking them. I express freely,
as so does you(pyraxis) online. The hardest
thing about personal encounters is "what do
you expect?" and "can I meet your expectations?"

Usually No!, and this is why I tend to avoid conversations
with NT's.

Hmmmmm?
Ghosthunter

He lives in the same town I'm in right now. I've told him a little bit about you. You could meet him if you want...

Hows that? How did you lose yourself?



How were you drawn in? Intrigue? Energy draw?
physical draw? Hmmmmm? I have no idea how to
approach this question?



Hmmmm? Kindered kind! energy? Attraction energy?
metaphysical energy? Hmmmmm?

Sincerely,
Ghosthunter

Not a problem! Oooh! by the way! What do you
think of the punishment I am giving Sean for his
inappropriate comment that was SOOOOO!
INSENSITIVE! It is in my signiture line!

Sincerely,
Ghosthunter

I have yet to read any of Donna Williams' books. Though I do have her down on my To-Do list...

I actually find I feel less interested in the personal stories books about Aspergers and more interested in the prevailing theories and research. Humz.