Experiments on COVID self-reporting

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So my University was sending gmdaily emails asking people the following two questions:

a) Are you coming on campus today? (Yes/No)

If the answer is "no", then no further questions asked. If the answer is "yes" then it asks the following questions:

b) Do you have the symptoms from that list

c) Have you read the guidances

Now, in my case the answer to a and b are both no. I am staying at my mom's place is a different state (since my classes ate remote) so I am not coming on campus, and no I don't have any symptoms.

However, I decided to do an experiment. So I answered yes to both questions. Then the system told me not to come on campus. But this feels strange because it already asked me whether I come to campus and I already said yes. So it's like it is trying to embarrass me: "see, you said yes, but actually it's a no". What they *should* have asked is "are you *considering* coming on campus today". The word "considering" implies that you aren't sure whether it's a yes or no, you are only thinking about it -- and then they will help you out in your thinking by telling you it's a no. But they didn't put the word "consider" in it. They just asked "are you coming". So if they have me say "yes I am coming" only to tell me that I shouldn't, it feels like a ploy to embarrass me.

Let me give you an example to illustrate this point. So on Russia there is a story book "memoirs of a matger of moomie troll" So basically there are creatures "moomie trolls" that ate a lot like kids and there are creatures "femals" that are like their parents (actually the word femal' doesn't imply their gender: they are both men and women; I read it in Russian and I didn't know English so that's why it didn't occur to me, but now that I am writing it in English, let me just leave out "e" at the end to make a distinction). So anyway there was this episode in this book:

Femal': What do you want for breakfast? A cereal or coffee?

Moomie troll: Coffee

Femal': Cereal. Coffee should be drank only at an old age

Now, leaving the health issue aside, what strikes me about this conversation is that she asked a question when it's not really a question. So why didn't she simply give him a cereal without asking? Or if she wanted to teach him something she could have given him a cereal (without asking any questions) and then said "by the way I have given you cereal instead of coffee because coffee is for older people". But if she starts out by asking a question then it's a putdown because then she is saying "see, you said coffee and it's the wrong answer" and also "see, you said coffee but you aren't getting it cause your voice means nothing".

I guess with the covid system it's not hurtful because it's not a person but a machine. I'm fact I was having lots of fun But part of the "fun" is to think to myself "look at how hurtful that would have been if it was a person". In fact, reading that story sort of falls in the same category.

Then the other experiment I performed is that I answered "yes" to a, "no" to b, and "no" to c. In other words, I am coming on campus, I don't have any symptoms but I haven't read the regulations either. Interestingly enough, they told me I am cleared to come on campus. They just reminded me to read the regulations. That too made me see a negative connotation for the people that do have symptoms. Because you see, if they were to tell both groups not to come on campus, then it would be like "nothing personal, you just didn't check all the boxes". But if they let "some" of the people in who didn't click all the boxes but not others, then this is like "no no, its not because you didn't check all the boxes, it's because you checked that one really horrible box". So it feels much more personal and much worse.

In any case, the way that system is set up is that I can answer that daily question over and over, not just once. I have to answer it *at least* once a day, but I can answer it more if I have to. In particular, whenever I am saying I am not coming to campus, the system tells me that if my plans change and I decide to come, I should fill it out again and say I want to come. Also whenever I say I have symptoms, the system tells me that if I clicked it by mistake I should fill it out again and say I don't have symptoms. So that is in fact what I done. And then it said I was clear to come on campus.

However, despite the fact that I corrected it and it said I was clear to come on campus, I got emails from the secretary as well as from the department chair asking me how I was feeling. I told both of them that I was feeling just fine and that I was just performing an experiment. The secretary responded by saying "thank you for sharing the results on this test I am so happy to hear that you are feeling well and are safe". The chair on the other hand said "Please bo more lying to the system". But then, after I apologized, she said "We actually learned from your experiment " So it's nice they were both so understanding about it I also got an email from the health service asking to contact them. I replied to them as well that it was an experiment, but I didn't get the answer yet, since it was Friday afternoon.

In any case, the past week I only had one qurstionare that I just described, which is called "daily employer screen". But the next day after I said I had symptoms on that one, I started getting two or three of them: one for employer one for student and one for resident. I am wondering whether it is a consequence of my saying yes or just a coincidence. One possibility of coincidence is this. They didn't have any of these screenings during the summer and only started it when fall semester started. So maybe they started one of them a week earlier and the other a week later?

In any case, the resident screen is set up differently. While the "employer" screen first asks me if I come on campus and only asks me about the symptoms if I say yes, the resident screen asks me about the symptoms right away. Then -- if I say no -- it asks me if I plan to come on campus today. I haven't tried saying "yes" because my chair said "no more lying to the system". But I am really curious what would happen if I say yes, would they ask me to leave the dorm or something?

Incidentally I am not at the dorm to begin with, I am living with my mom in a different state since my classes are remote -- but I still have my dorm room that I am not using (just keeping my possessions there) because I am locked in a lease and couldn't find anyone to relet it to. But since I am stuck in that lease I have to answer if I plan to get out of my dorm today, which means it would have to be a lie regardless of whether the answer is yes or no to that.

In any case, if I say one of those days I have symptoms on that "resident" system, will my chair be notified? I just don't want to get her mad since I already apologized and promised not to do it. But then again, it's quite possible she won't be notified somce the resident system is separate from the campus system. But I don't know it for sure. What do you think?

You're way overthinking it. Most people don't have the time to analyze every word they write to avoid misunderstandings especially since nearly everyone is capable of understanding what was meant. They're just asking if you're planning to come on campus. If so, they're asking about symptoms to get you to reconsider your decision to keep everyone safe. Sure, asking "Are you planning to come on campus today?" would be more precise but most people know it was implied.

Actually "are you planning to come on campus" won't work either since they would embarrass you by making you change plans. Incidentally, I just checked and they said "are you intending to come on campus" which I don't like for the same reason.

What *would* be good is to say "are you contemplating a possibility of coming on campus".

I guess the shortcoming of this version is thar they won't know what fraction of those contemplating the possibility would actually come. But the way to fix it is -- after the person says they have no symptoms and they are told they are fine to come -- to ask them a follow-up question as to whether or not they now decided to come now that they heard it. In other words, it would go like this:

System: Are you contemplating the possibility of coming to campus?

The person: Yes

System: Do you have symptoms from this list?

The person: No

System: As far as we are concerned, it is okay for you to come on campus. Are you still just contemplating, or have you actually decided to come now that you heard it?

The person: Still just contemplating

The system: Please re-take this survey if/when your plans on coming will solidify

Now I realize this is unnecessary length. But the way to reduce the length -- without causing ambiguity -- is to reverse the order of the questions -- which is what they did for housing. Because you see, for employees they first ask if you come on campus and then ask if you have symptoms while in housing they first ask if you have symptoms and then ask if you come on campus.

So if they do it the way they do for housing, then they will be able to have just two questions without embarrassing anyone. The first question is about symptoms. So if the person says they have them, they will simply be "told" not to come on campus. And there will be no embarrassment since they never said they were coming since they were never asked the question. So they aren't being asked to act opposite to their stated plans. On the other hand, if they say they don't have symptoms, then they are asked the next question as to whether they are coming on campus. And then there won't be any embarrassment either since their choice will be approved regardless of what that is.

Actually I like the housing version even better than "contemplating" version. Because you see, even if someone was "just contemplating" on coming on campus when they shouldn't have -- it still puts them into a bad light. Sure, it's not as bad as if they were actually planning on coming, but it's still bad. If you are contemplating on coming on campus despite the symptoms, you are half-stupid, and if you are planning on coming, you are utterly stupid. So it's embarrassing to be portrayed in this way. But if you do it in the way the housing does it, you avoid either of these situations.

The other argument in favor of housing way is that it enables you to actually count the number of students that have symptoms. But if you do it in the employee way, you will totally miss it. Let's say that 1% of students have symptoms but -- out of that 1% -- every 100-th is stupid enough to be contemplating coming on campus. Then, if you do it in the housing way, you will catch 1% but if you do it in the employee way, you will catch 0.01% That's because in the employee version of it, if your answer to the first question is that you are not coming on campus the thing terminates and they never get to ask you whether you have any symptoms.

Incidentally, remember how I mentioned in the original post that -- after I said I have those symptoms for an experiment -- I was contacted by a secretary, department chair, and health center asking about my health. But if it's my health that's their concern -- as evident from their questions -- why don't they want to ask about the health of all those other people that got sick yet are smart enough not to plan to come on campus?

This also feels like it has a connotation as to embarrass someone. By focusing specifically on the people that were planning on coming on campus -- as opposed to all sick people -- they are sort of rubbing it in just how far they were wrong.

Let me give you an example. So my mom is over protective and treats me like a little kid. So few years ago I had athlete's foot and my mom was concerned about it. Then one day I thought my athlete's foot was gone and so I proudly declared to my mom that it's gone and that I even figured out why: I wasn't drying my foot properly at first but now I started drying it better. But then my mom noticed athlete's foot on a different spot. So that kinda embarrassed me right there. But she didn't stop, she started to wonder why I have it for so long and what to do about it. Sure, she been talking about it before. But this time she was doing it even more than usual. So why would -- in response to my false declaration of recovery -- my mom would start talking about athlets foot MORE than before? Why not the same why does it have to be MORE? Was she trying to rub in the fact that I was wrong?

Well, here is the analogy between my mom embarrassing me over athlets foot and the university embarrassing students over covid. On the one hand, me falsely declaring to my mom about recovery from athlets foot made her talk more about the fact that I didn't recover. On the other hand, a student mistakenly deciding to come to campus when they shouldn't have makes university worry a lot more about their illness than they otherwise would be. So -- in both cases -- a sick person that called themselves healthy have a lot more attention drawn to their sickness than other sick people that straight out said they are sick. And that seems like a ploy to embarrass that overly-optimistic sick person and put them on their place.

why would anyone want to go and possibly get sick and die?

It’s very simple.

You said you had symptoms. That’s why you were told not to come to the campus.

It’s absurd to think beyond that.

For the 'fun' of it in some cases. Some people at my university wanted to have so much 'fun' that they threw back to school COVID parties. Should be seeing everything switching entirely to online soon.


https://twitter.com/SoozleMcDoozle/status/1294761893559762951

I think some people feel they have no choice though for classes, economic pressure.



I get a daily email asking me a single question with three answers. I haven't tested it. The options are yes I have symptoms, yes but I normally have these symptoms, and no. I always answer no and I don't go around people. Work in a lab by myself and no classes at this point.

Last edited by Feyokien on 22 Aug 2020, 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wow that's insane, where is it?

Iowa State University. All students have gotten some very threatening disciplinary emails now about these events. The school has finally decided to get tough and take action. A little too late though. I've heard of two universities that have already had to close up shop because of spiking cases after beginning the semester.

They are 18 years old and older. They don’t understand the ridiculousness of their stance.

Well that's a different topic. The fact is that some people do go -- since they have what they call "hybrid" semester. So most classes are online but a few are in person. Also they asked officemate's to come up with a schedule as to who is using the office when, so that they don't come to office at the same time. They also have one-way hallways. Our department is locked but we have keys to get in -- and yes we are allowed to use those keys which is why the topic of office schedule even came up. Apart from us having the keys to our department, also student Union building is open and a couple of others are open as well but of course they are regulated through one way hallways.

As I mentioned in the OP, I am not on campus, I am at a different state. But I couldn't get out of the lease in my dorm since I extended it last November when I didn't know about covid. My roommates didn't extend it so they aren't there but I received an email about three new roommates that I have. So apparently people aren't afraid to get on a plane and fly towards campus. And apparently they intend to come on campus or why would they fly.

Also I been to first remote lecture for the class I am a grader of. We had some meet and greet. So -- despite the fact that that class is remote, along with the majority of other classes in math department -- the students still physically came. They talked about the new climate and do forth.

The reason I am not there is that my mom pressured me to come back to her house. Otherwise who knows whether I would have decided on my own to stay there or come to my mom, could have been either one.

The question is why they first ask about coming to campus and then ask about symptoms. It would make more sense to ask about symptoms first. Asking about the symptoms first will avoid the conversation of the type "I am coming to campus; no you are not".

Was this "covid party" actually organized by someone with covid?

I heard of a covid party in Texas that was organized by someone with covid, they had corona-beer and they had prizes for people that catch covid first. Someone who went to that party actually caught covid and died at the hospital.

As far as I know, it was not.

I heard about that. What did they expect to happen .

It’s all a bunch of idiocy to me.

Imagine if there were “polio parties” in the 50s....

Are you saying that people in the 50s had different mentality than they do today?

I actually haven't heard of polio outbreak on the 50s until you just mentioned it. How dies it compare to coronavirus outbreak? Which one is worse?

Some people actually want To die. But there is too much taboo about taking your own life that no one wants to talk about it or they want to talk you out of it...despite not addressing the actual reasons you want to die. So getting a disease that may kill them is sometimes the only way.