Hemispheres and Asperger's

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Normally, when you look at a definition of Asperger's, or a list of symptoms, you'll see lots of references to maths, technology, science, things like that. However, not all people with Asperger's (or probably with, in the case of historical figures) fit that precise mold. Everything else, sure. But instead of a strong technogeek side, they have an equally strong artistogeek side.

To me, this reminds me much of the idea that one hemisphere of the brain is adept at science and technological stuff, the other with art and language.

The shockingly heretical thought I'd therefore like to put forward is that people whose artistic hemisphere is dominant can be as aspie as those whose scientific hemisphere is dominant, except that all of the usual symptoms must be converted over as well.

If this is true, then it is possible Asperger's is under-diagnosed, as technogeekiness is a very common thing to look for. (It's not in the DSM IV diagnostics criteria, but I can't think of any other book, article or online test that doesn't talk about technological or scientific skills and interests.)

It also occurred to me that left-handed aspies must experience something not quite the same as right-handed ones as the brain isn't perfectly symmetrical but left-handers have the functions swapped over in the brain. Functions, yes, but not topology, and Asperger's primarily involves the connections of the mirror cells at the front of the brain, which are presumably going to be in exactly the same arrangement as they would have been otherwise.

However, I have not been able to find anything that might back up this idea - or refute it. Anyone care to point me in a good direction?

It's been awhile since I read up on the theories of the neurology of autism but....I think the issue is one of communication between the hemispheres...ie connectivity ie the white matter and not the hemispheres themselves...grey matter.I have noticed that there are many people here more interested in music,liturature and drawing then the sciences but.....these things also contain a lot of maths with in them...logic application in literature,geometry in the arts and also a lot of "creative/thinking out side the box",in math and science.The idea that only the "arts" are creative or only the sciences are logical is actually a fallacy(ironicaly, in logic).I have never had an interest in math but I love logic.....it has the symetry of some beautiful art.I love music but have poor memory and no ability to make my fingers do what I ask them to do and controling my breath or diaphram...is beyond me.I love nature and would have gone into the sciences if it wasnt for my dyslexia(Dont you love my spelling)and memory problems(dont you love my random use of punctuation).Inspite of these learning problems...Literature has always been my passion...I can read and have good analytical sklls and comprahension of what I am reading but I cant write for crap.

How does this fit with your theory?(I think my grey matter must look like swiss cheese.)The theory that I was refering to said that the worse the connection of the two hemispheres the more extream the interests/savant skills and the more extream the
other /autie/aspie traits.I wish I had a link for you,but....I forgot it.

Wow, I was a bit curious of that too.

I read in a book that a syndrome of severe left hemisphere dominance may lead to learning disabilities. This syndrome is said to be rare. What else am I thinking?: Based on some of my data, I can summarize that the left hemisphere is more like an inhibitor. Both hemispheres can interact on a variation of intensities.

I think that the right hemisphere is linked to the generation of ideas as it is also linked to visual spatial thinking. It can also be linked to abstract thinking but not as much rationality as the left. The left is more like an error catcher - the peice that analysis.

I agree with imipak on something, though. There is a sense that I have that there is more to processing than the left and right hemispheres. But this is helpful to make sense of processesing information as that is to make a model of processesing based on functions of data processesing which shows to occur to be much driven by functions related to the hemispheres.

I interviewed THOUSANDS for technical jobs. I ask some VERY stupid questions! I feel like an IDIOT asking some of the questions. I even ask them like I don't know the answer. I give them a LOT of chances to give the right answer. I may EVEN ask a question that shows how they are so completely wrong, and come back. Do you know the pass rate? 0.5%! !! !! !! YEP, that's right! Not even 1 in a HUNDRED! BTW I am working now with one of the people that REALLY passed! One of the 0.5%, and he DOES seem AS!

BTW The questions really ARE incredibly easy. People that pass can EASILY pass within 8 minutes. Those that fail may not have answered one question in the 30 minutes I give them.

They mostly got rid of tech support! Most "tech support" is just the old customer support with a script to handle questions most might ask because MOST AREN'T "technogeeks".

OK, now, tell me AGAIN how common "technogeekness" is! So WHY are there so many programmers? A lot of people LIE, and it pays well!

BTW Artists are ALSO rarer than they might appear at first.

Steve

Current work with functional MRI scans seems to bear out the idea that the front of the brain is the only part that is common to Aspergers and HFA. The section joining the two halves together (the part you are referring to) is common to all with HFA. This is one reason I get irritated by Asperger's being classed as HFA - it's not even in the same part of the brain, so no matter how similar it looks, the differences show up plain-as-day on an fMRI.

The part you're referring to will indeed produce more and more pronounced autism, but not necessarily more pronounced Aspie traits, which convinces me that Asperger's is a branch off of the Autistic Spectrum and not on the primary line.

I can therefore see HFA being very symmetrical, but the mirror cells at the front of the brain will be asymmetric and that almost has to be reflected in how Asperger's is exhibited in left-dominant or right-dominant brains.

If there are any neurologists on Wrong Planet, or people with degrees - or even just the appropriate knowledge - in neurobiology, they are welcome to correct me on any of these points. I'm applying the results of research papers that seem to hold up pretty well to a line of questioning they were not really designed for, without fully understanding either.

However, wouldn't it be cool if we, just by knowing about ourselves and asking questions like this, discovered whole new identifiably and provably unique forms of Asperger's? However, I can't see anyone publishing a paper written by 12,553 individuals. You'd need a book the size of the latest Harry Potter novel for the credits, then two or three pages at the end for the contents.

I have a little bit of a background in neuroanatomy, and I'm assuming that this:

refers to the corpus callosum, which is an area of white matter connecting the two hemispheres of the brain. Everyone has this by the way, unless you have a particular birth defect called "callosal agenesis," which I believe is what Kim Peek had (the guy Rain Man was based off of). From what I understand, there is some evidence that the problems associated with ASD and NLD have to do with the underdevelopment of white matter in the brain. There are two main types of CNS tissue in the brain, gray (cell bodies) and white (myelinated axons). Gray matter is usually more associated with things like logical thought, linear reasoning, rote memory, etc., while white matter connects different tracts of gray matter and is important for more non-linear processing. I know that NLD in particular is considered a white-matter disorder. Since the right hemisphere in nearly all individuals has much more white matter than the left hemisphere, ASD and NLD tend to more often affect functions that we associate with the right hemisphere. In addition, I remember reading something about how white matter is important for the functioning of the frontal lobe, which makes sense when you're talking about deficits related to inhibition, attention, executive skills, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by mirror cells, by the way. I've never heard that term before.

Also, I'd like to comment on this:



How can you make a statement like this, given that we're nowhere near being able to make a diagnosis of ASD using fMRI? Sure, studies may have found some correlations between brain anomalies and autism, but it's not like you can look at someone's brain and say, "Oh, this one has HFA," or "This person is neurotypical." Even for disorders like aphasia, whose organic basis is much better understood, you can't make more than broad generalizations about the type of abilities someone is likely to have by looking at their brain. For instance, sure, if someone has an anterior lesion, it is probably their expressive abilities which are more severely affected, while posterior lesions are likely to cause worse comprehension abilities, but you can't really say more than that. You can't even say "This person has aphasia" purely based on brain functioning- you'd need to actually assess their abilities. For instance, I have a client right now (I'm studying speech pathology) who only has half his brain. His stroke was so severe that they removed his entire left hemisphere. Yet he can still speak (in one to two word utterances), and he can actually read and write. In fact, he even still has some function in his right leg (although not his right arm). Anyway, my point is that we still understand very little about the brain, and based on current knowledge, you can't really draw those sorts of conclusions about AS and HFA based on fMRI data.

Anyway, the reason for the breaking down of the distinction between HFA and Asperger's has to do with a number of studies showing that children diagnosed with Asperger's without exception also meet the definition for autism. If they meet the criteria for autism, then why make the Asperger's/autism distinction? Anyway, for people who do distinguish between HFA and AS, they usually do it based on whether the person had a language delay or not. And as this lecturer at the National Autism Conference pointed out, no other disorder has two entries in the DSM based on whether or not a language delay was present. Like, there isn't one diagnosis for ADD with language delay, and one without. Or mental retardation with language delay, and without. The information about the language delay just goes in a different sphere. There hasn't been any research that has found a compelling reason for the need to have different diagnoses for PDDs based on language delay.

Also, if you still have any of the articles you've read about these topics, I'd be really interested to read them.

Re-read that bit you quoted. He's not saying technogeekiness is common. He's saying that it is something people commonly associate with AS.

I have no background in neurobiology but after learning of AS I have developed an interest in it.I would love to have an MRI to see if anyone can find "differences".I keep hoping the local university will be looking for autistic volunters,so I can get one for free.I hate the current "subjective" test for AS,I want to SEE something.The research I have seem was mostly on a web site called...."Science Daily"(I think).There seems to be contridictory results.Some sibs who do not have AS seem to show the same "differences" to NT's as their sibs who do have AS.So why does the "difference" sometimes result in AS traits and other times it doesnt?Some people with autism show no "differences".There does seem to be some generalities concerning the "mirror" neurons?,amalgdyla(sp?)and white matter, but they often take information gleaned from LFA and generalize it to people with AS.I think they also do this for male test subjects,generilized to females.I am female and I resent this because they assume gender would have no difference but we already know that male and female brains and traits ARE different and that hormones may play a factor in autism(fetal exposure,not post birth, but I think this may also be an interesting research area.)

All new information begins with a "theory",so keep asking questions and looking for patterens.That is our "specialty" after all.Look outside the box....good luck.

Because the brain is very, very complicated, and we don't really understand it very well. I addressed this in my comment on what imipak wrote, because I felt like he was assuming that more knowledge about brain functioning exists than what is really out there.

Double post

Last edited by krex on 02 Aug 2007, 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I only vaguely recall the article I read about "mirror neurons" but I believe this is an area they refer to as the "monkey see,monkey do" area.It appears to have lower number of neurons in autistics.The theory was....because they were fewer in those with AS,we were less likely to learn facial expressions by mimicing our parents as infants.It may also account for fewer facial expressions in general(the AS "flat effect" appearnace).I think it is an interesting theory but I do wonder about what ASers are using when they "mimic" the accents of those they are speaking to,(I have seen threads talking about this being a trait for some with AS).Perhaps mimicing language is a different area of the brain.

I do wonder if the stronger use of the left hemesphere in many people for AS would show up in the poor cordination in general(Inbalance) and specifically when trying to use the left hand.I am very right handed.My left hand seldom feels like more then a "useless flipper",although being on line and typing with both hands maybe improving that inbalance....does using it more improve the over all function of this hemiphere?All interesting questions to me.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/


above is the link I was talking about.They have some very interesting articles you might enjoy.