Reading Emotions

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Greetings all,

As some of you may know, I suscribed to Wrong Planet a few weeks ago as I strongly believe I was born with AS. During the last two weeks or so, reading and learning further about Asperger Syndrome occupied the majority of my days, and I can relate with almost any symptom described within AS. There's still one thing I can't really relate to however, and that is the disability to read others emotions/intentions throught their non-verbal communication. Ive watched many videos on YouTube, and some of them even seem to describe AS mostly as a disability/difficulty at reading others emotions. One of those videos talked about a man who could not read facial expressions at all when he was a child, a problem that lasted since he was 8 years old or so.

I never had any issue understanding facial expressions or other non-verbal cues. My problem with others' emotions is not really that I can't observe them, but rather that I have a hard time considering them in my behaviors. I explain this throught the fact that my brain is mostly focused on precise logical details, to a point where I don't pay much attention to emotions. I even have a hard time considering my own emotions when I make personnal choices in my everyday life, as I prefer to rely on pure logic.

Did you have any problems reading others emotions as you grew up? Or would you rather describe your issues with the emotionnal world the way I did? Thanks for sharing!

I think this is an area of the DX I find rather confusing.I used to do "inturpritive reading" in school and won awards for,what I assume was an ability to show facial expression and tonal changes in my voice......ie....we can "act" .I learned these things from watching TV(a safe way to watch peoples facial expressions without worrying about what your going to say or avoiding eye-contact)I also learned a lot from reading books and the author describes the facial expressions....I recall very clearly trying to "do" these expressions with my own face as I read to try and understand them and the emotion attached to them...this is not the same as "instinctive understanding of expression" and something many with AS "practice" with no concious realization that they are doing so.Some basic non-verbal communication is obvious enough to figure out but I did not realize until recently that it actually makes up,up to 85% of human communication....I am maybe understanding 20% of that with much cognitive attention.

So,I believe we are capable of learning some of this but it doesnt mean it is instinctual.About the only facial expression I recall in childhood is rage or frustration/anger from my parents...those are pretty easy ones to pick up.There have been many more times when observing human faces,when I felt like everyone around me was being "fake",seemed like "over-acting" to me and "not real".I think this is because my own expressions are so "subtil"?THe most common reaction I get from people is that I look...tired,bored,angry....many times when I am feeling nothing like that(though,sometimes they are right).

I think that we do figure some of the ques out,over time,especially if we have a general interest in humans and what they are trying to communicate(Just like Diane Fossey?watching the gorillas),enough observation and we do pick up some things.I am very curious about the 65% I am missing.

I find this question oddly confusing because on the one hand it's where I lose most points on emotional intelligence tests where have to identify emotions on faces, but like you I believe that I have no trouble identifying them on peoples faces in "real life".
So not sure if it's that I am deluding myself about being able to read them in real life or whether I actually use lots of other non-facial cues to work it out .
I feel as if I can choose to take them into consideration,but that usually it's not a good idea to because it will just confuse me, or make me lose my place in some kind of logic chain, or something so that I feel even less authentic than normal. And make mistakes as a result, about what to do or whatever.
I think one reason I'm not convinced I should include the face cues is that my own are so often gestures that I think are appropriate. They have little or nothing to do with my real feelings. Which would explain why so often is bad idea to use other peoples faces as data cos there are probably quite a few face-fakers around, including important members of my family from whom I may have learnt in my childhood that faces weren(t very useful in decision making!! !
On the other hand in purely "social" situations , where everyone is playing a game to some extent, and it's like patting balls back and forth , I do know and use their expressions and my own carefully acquired range of facial expressions to play it with them. That stuff I'm good at; it cost me the academic life I should have been concentrating on but I learned all that. ! !!

I so get that!! I have felt that time and time again about fake ness. And also think that that's what I'm doing when I join in the way that people seem to like!! That I can go on for ages doing this thing like a dance where one little face bit is a reply to the others little facial gesture. But it feels like I'm doing something horribly like condoning dramas and automaticisms , like saying oh yes let's take each others stuff so seriously without questioning it , without keeping detached, as if I have to accpt everything they're saying rather than being able to stand back and have reservations.

I kind of relate the experience of interacting with very emotionally expressive people,to watching Kabuki(sp?)theater or anima(where they include such extream facial expressions,many which dont seem to fit,in my opinion),they also include symbols for emotion....like astrics,tears,etc...this gets really confusing until you learn what they stand for.I wonder if all anime artists are aspie?


Three other related things to this.....

I think that one reason I "fit" a bit better with NTs when I was drinking was that it "animates me" and I have more extreme emotions that seem to work better for them in excepting me as "one of them".It also clouds their own ability to "read non-verbal" so they are less likely to notice I m not doing it right.


I also seem to get along better with people who are "cool acting","mellow" or "stoners" because they dont seem to "over-act" their emotions(because it isn't cool to show to much emotion?)Anyway,these groups seemed to not ignore me(not that they actually excepted me either,as I was pretty far from "cool"),but I think my lack of expression did not stick out as much in these groups.

I was just watching a "sports event" in a movie on TV and was asking my BF if that sort of even ever made him feel like acting like the people at these events....screaming,clapping,jumping up and down....all seem very odd to me(as well as fake).It simply does not compute.I can feel very excited about playing with a dog or finding a cool rock but these social events...I feel nothing but annoyance.

[quote="krex"]" anima(where they include such extreme facial expressions, symbols for emotion....like asterisks,tears,etc...this gets really confusing until you learn what they stand for.I wonder if all anime artists are aspie?"

<<<< That's an interesting thought. By their fruit you shall know them etc. Because that reminds me I've spent many months at diff times in my life drawing faces , obsessively almost. And yes, I agree the faces in anime are exag. like my best ones were!!>>>>


"I think that one reason I "fit" a bit better with NTs when I was drinking was that it "animates me" and I have more extreme emotions that seem to work better for them in excepting me as "one of them"."


<<<< Yup, absolutely! Me too. It's why I became a pretty serious drinker for almost 10 years! Though I did wonder whether it might be because less anxious about making a mistake so took more risks and learned faster aswell. Not just more excitable but less inhibited about trying all those expressions out that I hadn't learned at the right age.>>>>


"I also seem to get along better with people who are "cool acting","mellow" or "stoners" because they dont seem to "over-act" their emotions(because it isn't cool to show to much emotion?), I think my lack of expression did not stick out as much in these groups."


<<<< Wow, never thought about that but that may well fit for me too. I felt relatively at home with more and more people like that over many years. Until virtually everybody I knew was a dopesmoker.The dreamy blank look ok! 'll have to think about that! Hmm!>>>>

And that since almost completely stopping both 10 years ago I have been more and more aware of my social-skills -problems, and more and more isolated. Until this year discover have ASD . If I hadn't stopped drinking I might not even know!! !

That is another problem with Dxing adults with AS....some of us grew-up drinking or using chemicals to mask our social issues.Even many of the issues/problems associated with AS can be written off as chemical dependency...ie...unstable social relationships,depression/anxiety,problems getting or keeping jobs,instability in daily life(bill paying,daily living skills).

Even when you get sober and the same issues keep surfacing,they blame it on the years of drinking,during which you supposedly stop "developing/maturing"......I recall learning that you are the age(when you quit drinking),that you were when you began because you have not used that time devloping the same coping skills of others in your age group...thus,chemically "developmentally delayed"<----(that's the polite term for ret*d,by the way.)SO I was 16 when I began and a 26 year old 16 year old when I quit.

I believed this theory and kept waiting to "grow-up"....still waiting and I'm 43 now.I dont notice Kenny G sounding any better to me.I still have a desire to get more tattos and have no understanding(or interest) in my 401K.That mean,I am not delayed but "stuck".

Welcome home.

I can read emotions better than 0% failure rate. I concentrate very hard and practice a lot. I seem to have a bigger problem understanding what is being said on television. Like I can't just listen to Jon Stewart, I have to stare and listen hard whereas I can comprehend a lot of what Stephen Colbert is saying as if I were listening to a radio program. Jon Stewart is a very talented NT in terms of his social smoothness. I think Stephen Colbert is too.

My problem is that I don't know how to defuse hostility. I can smell it but I don't see what I can do even though I try to behave nicely towards them even when they start turning on the disrespect and the snark. I think I see those signals really well.

I think my difficulties in this field rather lie within the more subtle aspects of nonverbal communication. For example I do not have the feeling that I can "sense" if someone wants to start a conversation, or if someone who yawns or looks at his watch while I'm talking is just tired or wants to know the time or is bored by me. Or I just generally find it difficult to figure out how to behave in some social situations. Such as let's say at school before lessons when classmates stand around outside of the classroom, how does one join in? What do people just always know to talk about in those moments before, between, after, and possibly even during lessons?! And if one as usually has nothing to offer to the conversation except for a "hi", and people have more or less already forgotten you're even there, does one still have to say something like "bye" or "I'm going" then when one goes after 10 minutes? Or will this make one look ridiculous? Or is it rude to just go away? Or is it ok in this case because you're going to see each other in the classroom again anyway? Those kind of things confuse me, but I don't even know if they fall under the area of nonverbal communication.

Interestingly enough, as far as I know the DSM IV doesn't even speak of problems with [u]reading nonverbal communication but rather only about problems [u]using it, doesn't it? And it's not even an absolutely necessary criterion for a diagnosis.

I seem to have that problem too, RisingPhoenix. I never know where to "come in" in group situations. Which is one of the reasons I get horrible anxiety when interacting with a new group for the first time. And sometimes even with people I know. Other then my parents, there's always room for anxiety when I interact with people.

As for not reading facial expressions well, I'm quite guilty of that. I'm always asking people "what's wrong?" or such because they have a look on their face and I just have no clue what it means. So then I start asking them because I'm getting anxious that I might have done something wrong. And I often have a hard time telling if people are joking with me or being rude, based on body language. Same thing for flirting. I don't even try to meet men when I'm out, I prefer going through the online personals because it's known the intention is to meet someone to have a romance with. I like knowing intentions.

risingphoenix, GypsysOdyssey :

Yes, this is what seems to be my problem as well. I tested myself with facial expressions and emotionnal intelligence tests and I performed better than average. But I really dont know how to behave in social situations... so I just keep quiet (which still is considred an odd behavior).

I mean, is there anywhere I could read all those rules I dont really get, the ones most people seem to naturally "see"? Maybe that is actually the problem : we aspies try to find out the social rules when there is just none. Maybe we over-analyze something that is too chaotic and too vague for our detail-oriented minds...

Also, do aspies are naturally ackward socially (in neurological terms), or do their social issues occur only because they simply don't fit with the NTs masses?

Let me squeeze in here too!

As I am only just coming to grips with all of this, this certainly is not anything new to me! Though I never understood that it was something I was "struggling" with and when I have been accused of being too "paranoid" for my natural need to ask questions such as "are you mad", "did I miss something", the all too playful "you hate me, don't you", and finally....the million dollar question "are you ok"! !

I am certain if my family or friends hear it one more time someone might jump, but I have never given it a second thought until more recently.

Also, i have had people point out my inadequate "guess" when implying that I knew how they were feeling, what they were thinking, etc which has caused me a great deal of stress because it really upsets the other people.

*sigh*

I also have problems reading emotions. That's probably why my friends left me when I was younger. Now I have friends who either understand this problem and accept that I don't always react to it, or laugh with me about it. I've actually come to devalue emotions because I've always viewed them as useless or a hindrance to making the right choices. I used to watch movies when I was younger where a character would make the wrong choices because of their emotions, and it made me think that emotions were really useless. I grew up not understanding them much or caring about them, and had trouble understanding characters' emotions in stories we read in English class unless it was specifically stated literally in the story.

I'm still insensitive and don't read emotions very well. If I could be trained to do that, the best I could probably do would be to remember the way people react or how they feel under certain conditions (ie, like a mathematical algorithm), but putting logic into something that has no logic probably won't work well, and at most, I'd end up memorizing a list of stuff about people, but not really feel it myself.

Nonetheless, I never viewed this to be a problem at all. In fact, I was barely aware of it until my friend told me (a year ago, I think) that I was insensitive. I still don't view it as a problem. It just means I deal better with situations where other people might lose their temper and think irrationally; I wouldn't.

That happened to me a lot when I was younger. My teacher would ask my parents if I was sick, because I constantly looked tired/sick/bored. I lost count of how often I told them I was looking neutral.
During the graduation ceremony (now that sounds stupid) I was up on the stage and I know I smiled, it felt like I smiled, but afterwards my family asked me why I didn't smile. What am I supposed to say to that?

Heh, makelifehappen, this post is like reading my own biography!

I know exactly what you mean this part of the diagnosis really worries me. I am pretty sure I can read people fairly well, I'm just socially a bit nervy and clumsy. Although I have been diagnosed I don't think I have full blown AS. I would'nt worry I suppose it just means you don't have deficits in that area, perhaps there are other things that are stronger for you like obsessions or other aspects of socialising.