Difference between Aspergers and Introversion please?

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Out of the 169 WP members who have so far taken the Jung-Myers Typology Test for Introversion-Extroversion which is on another thread on here: 165 got a introvert score. That is to say that more than 99% of people on WP are introvert.

Can someone please explain to me what the difference is between the two, apart from the fact that one designation/typology is very profitable for certain industries and the other is not ???

Introversion includes some sensory difficulties, which the DS does not in its definition of AS/ASD/Aspergers; treating sensory difficulties as yet another disorder; SPD/SID, despite its more than 75% co-morbidity with AS . But is that the only inherent difference?

Are Aspies unhealthy Introverts? ( or even the healthy ones, seeing as apparently sensory problems are NOT recognised as part of aspergers syndrome, just "often associated " with it ! )

Discriminated-against Introverts? ( when did introversion become virtually a disability?)

Or is there some REAL difference which justifies all the paperwork associated with aspergers but not with introversion?

NB: Please do the test if you haven't already so that the results become more and more statistically significant. The thread is on the front page of General Discussion at the mo.

Thank you!
If you can't find that thread though here is the link:
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

Last edited by ouinon on 01 Nov 2007, 2:53 am, edited 9 times in total.

Youpie!! I'm a Deinonychus!!

I'm surprised that the definition of introversion in includes sensory difficulties. Does it also include the problems with motor coordination, difficulty dealing with change, and difficulty reading nonverbal cues the way AS does?

Simply being introverted is not a disability. It is a disability when one's problems interfere with the ability to perform daily living activities, cause problems in school or at work, or interfere with interpersonal relationships to the point of isolation or ostracism. AS can also lead to crippling problems with anxiety and depression, and in extreme cases, can prevent one from being able to either find or keep employment. Those cases definitely constitute disability.

The problem is that introversion on those sorts of tests is not defined as what most people consider introversion.

It's not defined as how much you want to be around people, it's about whether socialization wears you out (introvert) or energizes you (extrovert).

Therefore, anyone subject to overload around people is going to score as an introvert, whether they really are or not.

Lost-in-Space; So aspergers and people,( of average intelligence ), with AS, are disabled introverts? The difference is that Aspergers/AS sufferers are a sub-group of the larger group Introvert then? But yes def of Introversion , following discoveries by neurological studies which substantiate Jungs original groupings , show that the "reason" for introversion is that their brains function better at lower levels of stimulation than extroverts. That this falls on a bell-curve distribution, that it can change over time if exposed to prolonged stress for instance , and that it results in introverts often seeking softer , smoother clothing , monochromatic interiors , and quiet surroundings , because they can not function correctly in high-stim environments.

Anbuend ; if that's the def of introversion though on "those" tests, if that is in fact a defining characteristic of introversion, as is apparently the case, and if AS people score as introvert on these tests then wouldn't it suggest that they are in fact almost exclusively introvert ? Because otherwise it's like you're suggesting that these people with AS could be cured and would discover themselves to "really" be extrovert.

Last edited by ouinon on 30 Oct 2007, 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

If they want to say "easily socially overloaded," then they ought not to use a word for it that is so easily confused with "prefers little to no social interaction and lives mostly in their head". Because the second is the mainstream definition of introversion, and there are plenty of people who are easily socially overloaded who don't fit the mainstream definition of introversion, and plenty of people who are not easily socially overloaded who do fit it.

You can create any result you want by changing the definition of a word and then using the word with this new definition that almost nobody uses, but it's playing mind-games, it's not actually finding useful information. It's sort of like someone I know who uses the word "anxiety" to mean any uncomfortable physical sensation at all. Sure, she can call it that, but what most people will hear is "fear" because anxiety really does have a mainstream definition and that definition involves fear. Similarly, introversion does have a mainstream definition, and that definition is not the one used by these decidedly non-mainstream tests.

So sure, you want to say someone in pain is suffering from an anxiety problem, be my guest, but you won't solve anything, you won't prove anything about pain really being anxiety, you're just redefining words. You want to say that introversion really means being socially overloaded easily, again be my guest but you're still not saying anything, you're just mucking with word definitions, and I don't have the mental energy to converse with people who do that on a regular basis, I have enough trouble with language comprehension already.

I have a friend who's already written about this some:

http://thiswayoflife.org/blog/?p=192

If you continue to believe that the Myers-Briggs-ified definition of introversion is "the" definition of introversion, I have no further desire for conversation with you, though, because it can't go anywhere good when all you do is change the word meaning so you don't have to change the words.

I thought that " prefers little or no social interaction and lives mostly in their head" was a major part of the asperger experience.

I'm not fixated eternally on Myers-Briggs definition. It's only this year that I discovered this test for the first time. Please tell me what you think is wrong with it?
It's only 6 months since I began to think that I was either introverted or aspergers ,( until then I had just thought that I was depressed !) so would appreciate some help with definitions. How DO I know which one I am then?

It is possible to answer the M-Briggs test to express ones desire to socialise if one wishes. So why doesn't this supposedly frustrated desire show up in the scores on here, to show the frustrated EXtroverts amongst Aspies ?

Last edited by ouinon on 30 Oct 2007, 12:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Im an extrovert- ENFP. i know 2 other aspie extroverts too. Extroversion in my mind is more about expression. Extroverted aspies are driven to express themselves out in the world. But it doesnt seem to be so common.

I love being with people and i love talking, though I also like time alone too.

The problem is I always seem to mess up my social interactions because I am socially quite confused and naive.

Extroverted aspie characters are sometimes seen in popular culture: a good example is the character Steve Urkle.

I think one can be introverted without having sensory issues - they just prefer to stay in. I prefer to stay in, but I think it's more than simple introversion, because I'm bad a socializing, it stresses me out, I get social anxiety, and I stim etc. Those are issues much deeper than an introverted personality.

At least the introversion-extroversion "spectrum" can be measured , by the neurological measurements of "optimum-function-stimulus" levels. Introverts level is lower. Extroverts is set higher , although this may change if undergo prolonged stress.
It is a real difference between people, to do with their capacity to handle lots , or little , external stimuli.
Introverts brains are already actively processing interiorly generated data , and so are quickly overloaded by outside stuff. They have quite enough interesting things going on their heads to be happy alone for long periods of time.
The extrovert will seek company for outside stimulation so can function.
So if there are genuinely extrovert Aspies then they should show up. There are several questions where a preference for/an interest in "external" stimuli is "tickable".

I've looked over the test twice again in the last ten minutes , aswell as reading that link Anbuend posted, and I still simply can't see any difference at all. They seem identical to me. Except where there is serious disability problems like you mention, Lost-in-Space,but I thought that was the whole point about aspergers and HFAS, that they are so many advantages and superiority , nothing much to be sorry for , etc, because there is no impaired intelligence.
A lot of aspies post about wanting/longing for a sexual relationship, for a significant other , or for sex full stop , but that doesn't seem incompatible with introversion to me. Wanting sex, or wanting some relaxing company in the room next door without the effort of going out to look for it; that's not extroversion. I don't notice many posting wanting groups of friends and constant socialising .
?

The DEFINITION of autism is introversion, but introversion is just introversion, and autism includes other things. Autism got its name from the primary symptom. introversion just means quiet, reserved, shy.

From wikipedia:

BTW

It says My Type is
INTJ
Introverted Intuitive Thinking Judging
Strength of the preferences %
89 25 94 56

Actually, it's not. One thing that's actually almost stereotypical is desperately wanting social interaction and going about it in clumsy ways that turn other people off, or else being so unable to show that they want interaction that others don't even pick up on the person as wanting interaction and write them off as socially uninterested (when in reality they may be very interested). If lack of desire for social interaction were such a major part of being autistic, there would be no autistic community, and autistic people would not so frequently complain of loneliness and wishing they had more friends to hang out with. One reason for the high rate of depression among autistic people is social isolation.

There are also a number of autistic people who would not be particularly introverted if it were not for having bad social experiences over and over and over again.



It doesn't fit what most people mean by the word introverted. Most people when they talk about someone being introverted, are talking about a preference.



Because the testing does not count social desire for much when they are counting introversion/extraversion. At most it may be one or two questions, and even then there are other things that can lean a person towards a different answer.

For instance on one popular test these are the introversion/extraversion questions (I put in parentheses I for introversion and E for extraversion according to what the test claimed it measured):



This question is not about preference, it is about what you end up doing. This depends on a number of things, including social skills, social anxiety, and level of social overload. Not just preference, and not even probably primarily preference.



This one is about level of tolerance for social situations with lots of people, probably also sensory situations with lots of noise, social anxiety, etc. A hard-of-hearing person would probably, for instance, answer the kind that means "introverted" because they would have trouble listening to people in such a chaotic environment (presuming the party was mostly hearing people), and it would exhaust them. At any rate, this one again isn't mostly about whether a person prefers to socialize or not, it has to do with a specific situation that is highly overloading for a lot of people.



This one also depends heavily on how well-liked you are, how well you are able to keep socially engaged while working, assorted social skills, sensory overload, and social anxiety sorts of factors. More than it depends on a person's preference for how social they are in general.



This one is mostly about conversational skills, and possibly phone-phobia in some people. Again, not about social desires. Interestingly enough, the question could also be measuring the J/P axis on the test, with the first answer being P (who supposedly prefer things spontaneous) and the second answer being J (who supposedly prefer things planned).



Difficulty initiating conversations is listed as one of the possible criteria for autism. For many of us this is not a matter of social desire at all, having again to do with social skills, overload, ability to initiate anything (not just social things), etc.



This is again about level of overload in social situations, not about social desire.



Finally, a question that deals with preference, although it can also deal with many other things. It's in fact the only question on the E/I axis on the entire test that deals with preference. Excluding the many other things (including overload) that might guide preference, even if it was just on social preference alone, this one question would not be enough to sway an introvert to an extravert or an extravert to an introvert unless the person were hovering on the edge already.



This one has to do with familiarity, overload, and all sorts of other things, doesn't necessarily have a thing to do with preference.



This might have to do with preferences about phones, which can't be generalized to all social contact. (In fact lots of people who don't like social contact in general might be fine on the phone, and lots of people who don't like phones may like social contact in other forms.)



This one has to do again with social skills, including the ability to project an aura of approachability, and to sustain conversation, both of which are difficult for many autistic people.

So, you see above, only one question has to do primarily with social preference, and that one's just about how many friends you prefer to have. Most of these questions would not pick up on a "frustrated extravert" at all. I'm certainly introverted in both the Myers-Briggs sense and the usual sense, but I'm also a heck of a lot more extraverted than these tests give me credit for.

Autism got its name from two different doctors who believed that what they were observing was a particular form of aloneness, and projected a lot of their own motivations onto the autistic people they were studying. (Such as, "If I were doing what these autistic people are doing, then I would be someone who prefers aloneness.")

One really obvious example of that is that Kanner viewed autistic people's frequent trouble with reflux or vomiting as infants as part of a pattern of rejection of everything from the outside world.

He also said things like, "She pays no attention to what is said to her but quickly comprehends what is expected." What he really meant was, "She does not look to me like someone should look who is paying attention to what is said," but instead he said "She pays no attention to what is said," which is quite different. He made the exact same mistake in assuming the motivations of autistic people were to reject all contact from the outside world, be it social or even food.

Given a group of people who look by a standard perspective unengaged or uninvolved socially, there will probably be some people who really are. But there is likely to be a lot of other people who are extremely interested in social things and yet so unable to show it (whether by knowledge or by ability to act on that knowledge or by fear or by something else) that they look no different from someone who is uninterested or even unaware of other people's existence.

Social aloofness is not a primary part of autism, it is merely what other people see in autistic people (whether it is there or not in any given person), and the primary thing that bothers other people in their perception of autistic people. It being considered the primary autistic characteristic says a lot more about Leo Kanner than it does about autism.

Ok, thank you very much for replying so fully. I appreciate it because this is a bit of a mystery to me.
I don't know if I've got it right but it seems that you dismiss/refute not only Myers-Briggs test for Int/Ext then but also the one you dissect above. IS there a test for introversion/ext which you consider reliable and meaningful? Or do you think the whole concept of types is meaningless?
I suppose, again correct me if I'm wrong, that you do not like the neurological studies of "optimum-function-stimulus" levels, and the bell-curve distribution of ints and exts which follows from that either then, because if being introvert is a matter of pure preference then it can NOT be determined by a (relatively) pre-set brain condition? .
In fact even Jungs breakdown of humanity into the two types is nonsense , because there would be nothing "essential" about humans to account for the diffs?
Or you think there IS a type more prone to make the introvert choices in life , but for other reasons? And in that case what is it that determines those preferences?

Isn't it possible that Jung was all the same describing something fundamental, about peoples neurophysiology, which the stimulus set point theory seems to support , which in fact might be connected to Aspergers type thinking behaviours.
OR....... is it just the old sensory difficulties issue again ?! Introverts are people challenged by too much outside stim , whereas extroverts are people challenged by too little outside stim?! The Int-Ext spectrum has maybe more to do with sensory processing difficulties than AS.
So I'm an Introvert Asperger ?! ! That is an aspergers with sensory processing difficulties, which seems to account for 75% of AS sufferers actually , which would fit with the test results reasonably ( sort of ) , without actually saying that Introversion is the same as AS! Before my breakdown,( which was the result of various kinds of prolonged stress) I was extroverted ( well, from late teens anyway)with classic womans version of high-functioning AS social-mimicry!!

But no, there's too much else , about the kind of interests I have , and the way I like to "play"/entertain myself , so many solitary activities. So many preferences for being alone , which are BECAUSE of /part of my aspergers. Nope, I think it's much the same thing for ME anyway. However aspie extroverts ... that's the problem.

Last edited by ouinon on 30 Oct 2007, 4:50 pm, edited 10 times in total.

I like having groups of friends and I like constant socialising. I am just poor at presenting the social skillls to keep these.
I also have a lot of social anxiety because of past bad experiences.

My enjoyment of people doesnt mean I am not aspie. I have plenty of sensory sensitivities and I definitely have an autistic brain. But I have languages as my strong suit which naturally draws me to psychology, and people.

You must all the same be a very high functioning one ; in my experience being a receptionist, as you are, was the hardest job I ever had, from an aspie point of view. Beyond me, in fact!! ! The need to dress formal/smart, the need to small talk and greet, make tea at right moment , time-manage post and calls and couriers etc.
Hell!! I lasted about two weeks I think ! !