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paolo
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29 Feb 2008, 1:13 am

Who is being trapped? see today's NYT article and video:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/2 ... of-autism/

more to follow.


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Villain
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29 Feb 2008, 4:20 am

NT-language is by design bound to limit the view of our surroundings to distinct categories, where they in fact don't exist, and, as NTs think mostly in words, so are their thoughts.

On the other hand, NT language (and thought pattern) is the base of all society and has proven it's efficiency.



Last edited by Villain on 29 Feb 2008, 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

RampionRampage
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29 Feb 2008, 4:23 am

Villain wrote:
NT-language is by design bound to limit the view of our surroundings to distinct categories, where they in fact don't exist, and, as NTs think mostly in words, so are their thoughts.


*head desk*
i really need to educate myself on the studies showing that no one really thinks in words so i can argue the point when it comes up.

*waits for the more well-rounded folk to kick in*


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zen_mistress
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29 Feb 2008, 5:18 am

I think in words though they seem to come with a picture attached. I think words are fine. What i dont find easy is being expected to find hidden meanings behind words, and also listen to voice tone and remember to make eye contact all at once. There is just too much going on there.

I think that Amanda is happy with her mode of communication because she is not expected to process too much stimuli at once. She can just focus on whatever she is processing at that moment.

Words are a good form of communication but they have their limitations. NTs regularly misinterpret each other, and their system of hidden meanings in language is not efficient at solving conflict, it only packages it neatly somewhere else.

But it is the best that regular humans have at the moment.


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Reyairia
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29 Feb 2008, 7:04 am

RampionRampage wrote:
Villain wrote:
NT-language is by design bound to limit the view of our surroundings to distinct categories, where they in fact don't exist, and, as NTs think mostly in words, so are their thoughts.


*head desk*
i really need to educate myself on the studies showing that no one really thinks in words so i can argue the point when it comes up.

*waits for the more well-rounded folk to kick in*


It'd explain why people are recommended to take a second language. I think it is sure that language does restrict imagination, and that's why taking a second language is recommended to kinda take away that boundary.



paolo
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29 Feb 2008, 7:15 am

Verbal linguistic communication is full of traps, adulterated by etiquette, lies, diplomacy, reticence, good manners, hidden goals, treachery and what not. I don't talk enymore and my vocal chords are atrophied for lack of use.



anbuend
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29 Feb 2008, 10:52 am

Ugh, and that's not even what I meant by it either. Oh well. I suppose if people in the media get things a bit wrong when they talk to me, then it only follows that people will get things even more wrong when they read what other people have written after talking to me.


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Asterisp
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29 Feb 2008, 11:55 am

Reyairia wrote:
It'd explain why people are recommended to take a second language. I think it is sure that language does restrict imagination, and that's why taking a second language is recommended to kinda take away that boundary.

I am raised bilingual. In one language I can express certain things, that I can not express in the other language. Even if the languages are really close to each other.

Later I learned more languages and the point came only stronger. That is properly one of the reasons why the Dutch language incorporates English and German words or sayings.



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29 Feb 2008, 12:37 pm

Interesting, I just wrote something along these lines on my blog.

Quote:
Evolution Personified

If one were to personify Evolution, he would say that Pathology is a ridiculous invention of the human brain: mere semantics in order to categorize when our bodies or minds don't quite work normally or-- in the case of more deadly conditions like cancer-- may be harmful or deadly to the organism.

Therefore, Language becomes an alternate world of its own. But whatever you call something, however you categorize it, doesn't change its inherent nature. Therefore, words like "disorder", "disease", and even "syndrome" have no place in material reality; they are simply shorthand symbols we humans use to categorize the variety that living organisms come in. Sometimes, that is a potentially deadly variety, as mentioned with cancer; sometimes, as is now the argument with autism, it isn't usually deadly but now advocated for as a neurological difference (i.e., Neurodiversity)-- although sadly one may argue its deadliness what with our high suicide rates .

I will not pretend words do not have an effect. Indeed they do, as we humans are dependent on them for communication, society, and having our needs met. Words are a visual and auditory medium for affecting change within ourselves and others. However, they are not real, beyond their sound, their appearance, and the meanings we choose to give to them.

So when someone tells me "Autism is a disorder", I am taken aback, not because I find it insulting (although I do), but that I suddenly realize this person and I have no common ground on which to find agreement, because they are coming from the world of Semantics. As humans, we act as though words are REAL, because they feel so real. A single word can trigger a cascade of imagery in our brains just with a passing mention. In such a Semantic world, words have material substance, therefore it makes sense when doctors label something a "disease" or a "disorder". --How many people would argue that cancer isn't a disease? But it isn't. To Evolution, it is just one more variety that happens to often kill its larger host. Yet cancer in its controlled sense is life (the generation of cells) and as living organisms our cells are constantly dying, dividing, and growing, so how does one truly call it a "disease"? There is no clear line.

And for a parent to hear "Your child has a disorder called Autism", that is a powerful sentence. Does it change the child? No. But the WORDS, particularly "disorder" paired with "autism" are incredible. Just with that auditory stimuli, a schema of pathology, of harm, of danger, of misery, is immediately summoned. That's scary: all from a few words.

In the end, words do matter enormously, but they are not material. And all Evolution knows, were it to speak and walk about on legs, is that as living organisms, as devices for the dissemination of our DNA, we live, we breed, we die, QED. And maybe some of us are lucky enough to enjoy it in the meantime.


Although, truth be told, we auties can get lost in language too. But perhaps, given our disease with it sometimes, or our precise minds, we may be a little less likely to not realize when we are just getting tied up in semantics and missing the real point.


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CockneyRebel
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29 Feb 2008, 2:57 pm

That explains why I will often have a miscommunication with my mum, that could end up with disastrous results. The last one that we had, was in October, and that lead to something unpleasant. That's water under the bridge, though.


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gwenevyn
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29 Feb 2008, 3:41 pm

Asterisp wrote:
Reyairia wrote:
It'd explain why people are recommended to take a second language. I think it is sure that language does restrict imagination, and that's why taking a second language is recommended to kinda take away that boundary.

I am raised bilingual. In one language I can express certain things, that I can not express in the other language. Even if the languages are really close to each other.

Later I learned more languages and the point came only stronger. That is properly one of the reasons why the Dutch language incorporates English and German words or sayings.


Yes. And the key here is that you didn't begin to have those feelings only after you had the words to describe them. You had them beforehand and you were given the tools to share them, with new words.

Steven Pinker brings up the example of schadenfreude to illustrate that our thoughts are not bound by language. He notes that when English speakers hear this word for the first time, their reaction is not "Huh? 'Pleasure in another's misfortune?' My language does not include this concept and I cannot imagine feeling such a thing." They say "COOL! I didn't know there was a word for that feeling."

Nobody thinks in pictures or words or sounds. That is a bit like saying the calculations performed by your computer do not exist until a monitor is attached and the calculations are displayed in a readable format.


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Last edited by gwenevyn on 29 Feb 2008, 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anbuend
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29 Feb 2008, 4:15 pm

People do seem to be trapped in a symbol-system quite often though, and that's more what I was addressing. It also applies to many autistic people frankly. I see it a lot.


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29 Feb 2008, 5:51 pm

anbuend wrote:
People do seem to be trapped in a symbol-system quite often though, and that's more what I was addressing. It also applies to many autistic people frankly. I see it a lot.


Yes, there's a lot of talk about "psychiatric" versus "neurological" and "disorder" versus "syndrome" as though there's a physical difference that these terms represent.

More often these types of terms just reflect the history and tradition of the fields from which they developed. Nothing more.

(That's just a few examples I notice more on these forums.)


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gwenevyn
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29 Feb 2008, 6:03 pm

Sophist wrote:
Yes, there's a lot of talk about "psychiatric" versus "neurological" and "disorder" versus "syndrome" as though there's a physical difference that these terms represent.

More often these types of terms just reflect the history and tradition of the fields from which they developed. Nothing more.


I want to applaud that statement.


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29 Feb 2008, 6:20 pm

Although professional fields like Psychiatry and Neurology don't make it any easier for the laypublic to understand about the terminologies used. It behooves a Psychiatrist to label his client with something "psychiatric" so as to keep him as a client and treat him (and do good business or feed his ego, etc.), and the same with the Neurologist, to label "neurological" conditions and treat them.

And similarly with the concept of "pathology". If a doctor were to say "Joe, your liver has some cells which are growing too much and too rapidly, you need to stop drinking" versus "Joe, you have liver cancer, you need to stop drinking", which statement is Joe more likely to listen to and take action? I would think the latter, because just the word "cancer" scares the s**t out of most people.

Labeling any mental/psychiatric/neurological condition as a disorder is not only a way to sum up a group of traits more easily, it also dictates treatment, as well as provide impetus to seek out that treatment. It basically implies, "Something's gone wrong here and it needs to be fixed if possible".


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ixochiyo_yohuallan
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02 Mar 2008, 4:10 am

Villain wrote:
NT-language is by design bound to limit the view of our surroundings to distinct categories, where they in fact don't exist, and, as NTs think mostly in words, so are their thoughts.


That is, except for the 40-60 percent who think in images. :) And let's not forget the other 4-10 percent whose thinking is kinesthetic, musical and/or purely abstract.

Bearing this in mind, I really don't see why an autistic verbal thinker could not get just as lost in language as a non-autistic one. As for thinking styles in general, each of them has its own disadvantages (this applies not only to verbal thinking, apparently), and each could be limiting in its own way - but each also has major advantages. So why not stop complaining, and start appreciating people for being precisely the way they are?