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I fail miserably at this in any aspect of life. I try to but I rarely ever get it right. It upsets and frustrates others and me alike.
Have any of you guys found a way to overcome or just improve it and are in the mood to help out?

I'm appalling at negotiation, if that's what you mean?

I mean things: When Is my turn to say or do something? When should I stop? When should I listen or respond? What should or shouldn't be said? How do you know what people expect of you?how to know if someone's really interested in what you're saying? ... how to decode their reaction or the lack of it? I could go on forever. I know I'm clueless but noone around me seems to be able to help me since they can't understand how I can't figure these things out naturally and am looking to find definite, clear cut rules that I can use to know what to do.

Well, if we knew how to do all that, we wouldn't be able to call ourselves aspies...

I made a decision to embrace wierdness. If everybody's going to think I'm wierd anyway, I might as well be. Not a great solution, but best I've found.

to zghost: Thanks, I embraced my difference quite some years ago as I have always had differences from my peers and some not AS related. But I still do wish sometimes to be able to really communicate with another person, Share an idea with them, make someone happy, help someone out, be able to at least maintain simple relationships... Do you know what I mean?

to greantea : I do not believe that is true. I'm not saying that our aspie fellow members can do these things naturally like NTs can. But I have noticed that there are quite a few members who have friend, boyfriends/girlfriends and are even married and/or have kids. Do relationships get deeper and more complicated than that?
So maybe I'm seeking advice from those members who-at least to me-seem to have been able to aquire some skills to form these connections. Do you think I'm wrong?

Naturally, to sound realistic, most of us won't get very far out there concerning relationships in person; it's why many doctors will say that one cannot have Asperger's if one can form real friendships away from a mechanical environment (school, work and whatnot). It's a generalization, but there's much truth to it.

It's the autistic way.

The 'net is a godsend for those of us who're socially impaired; perhaps talk to people you know in person via the computer?

I have never heard someone say that you aren't an aspie if you can have friends. In fact, all of the literature I have encountered says quite the opposite - that aspies can and do, in fact, seek out and maintain friendships and romantic relationships all the time, it just takes some practice and often a lot of patience for both parties once the relationship has been established. I think there are lots of happily married aspies who would strongly disagree with that statement.

As for the original post, I have some ideas but I don't have time to respond at the moment. I will try to remember to come back to this thread.

There's some anaecdotes around here where people weren't said to have Asperger's by professionals due to having relationships.

Speaking objectively, here you go (taken from an article that nominalist provided):

Thanks for answering guys.

Well for one thing as I said in another thread I can't type very well ( and I'm a programmer! ) and if I could what would I be telling people? That's what's the problem is that even if you take the social clues and the sensory issues out of the equation I still don't know What I should do. Heck responding to posts is taking me forever and when I'm done with them I still don't know how are they going to come off to others. Do you talk to people through your computer? What kind of things do you talk about?
And who would I be talking to through the computer? I don't have any real friends and those that I call friends are all NT and don't know that I'm not.

to ButchCoolidge: I'm really looking forward to it. Please don't forget.

The rules of engagement.

They could care less about you. Keep the conversation about them.

Keep your responses short, and reply in the form of a leading question. I agree, but how does that work?

Pretend to show interest. Be an audience.

Questions about you can be redirected, If I knew that I would not be asking, how do you deal with it?

Gve people a chance to speak of themselves, thier opinions, which you agree with, and they will think you are really smart.

A whole host of problems can be overlooked if you make them feel good about being them.

Common situations,

Mom! My hair will not stay right? Oh, thanks Mom, you always know.

You are not sure if he likes you? Well he could just be scared of you awesom beauty, and figure you are way above his world.

I am not sure if I am doing it right, and I try, should this be done this way or that? Thank you, I hope you don't mind my dumb questions, but I want to do it right.

Put them in a superior position, where they are comfortable, helpful, and can act in a good way.

99% is about how you make them feel about themselves. If you make them feel good, you are great.

They are going to act anyway, and before getting in deep, such as marraige, you want to test their responses to easy questions, and putting them in a leadership position, their natural traits come out.

Humans are easy to condition. If the last three interactions caused them pleasure in being themselves, they will want to interact with you next time.

Keep the first few short, then as they become accustomed to you, they will open up and the relationship will grow.

If you want a man, treat them like the man you want. Give them the possibility of being kind, understanding, loyal, hard working, someone who would make a great father, and you might just find they try to fill the role. It is seeing good where the world sees doubt.

Everyone wants to hear they are a good person. Everyone has been told they were failures.

Seeing the good in people, directing your words to bringing them out, they will move down the path of good, for they do see themselves as worthwhile.

There are hidden treasures for those who take the time to help others express themselves.

See good, and good will see you.

Telling people you see good in them will keep them talking about themselves.

With a few words you can open them up and learn the inner person. Few meet that person. You wil be valued.

In time they will ask about you, and not of the surface and superficial, they will want to meet the inner you.

Treat them like a scared puppy, kitten, or child. A few calming words, and wait. They will keep their distance, but come back, and after a few times, overcome their fear, and come closer.

We cannot deal with fear, but can reach out through it. Wait till they can approach you without showing fear, without the act, and treat them the same.

They are worthwhile, because you said so.

Most human relationships are two people's outer acts fighting. Tame them, calm them, value them, and you will see what few others do.

Once they value you in their lives, they will give you room to be yourself, and defend you to others.

WOW! Thank you! thank you! Thank you SO much. That's very kind of you to provide these for me. I'm very grateful for them. I'm going to print this out for myself. Although I don't like to be fake, There don't seem to be any other way to get to know people. Because if they never get to know me how could they like me for who I am?
But my! That's seems like a full time job! Could you please be even kinder and give me a baby step to start from?

I'm still trying to figure out the logics behind this one. I'm sure I either come out as a mindless idiot or incredibly rude even if it was never my intent. To come off as incredibly rude, that is.

The world is fake, I am telling you to be honest.

Most interaction is expected space filler. Hi, How are you? While walking away.

Many are so afraid, they put out the act first. They live the act.

They may do it, that does not mean it has been working out.

The reason Aspies are so bad is they are good.

We do read them, at a deeper level than they are willling to cope with. We expose their secrets.

Stop that!

They cannot deal with the truth, it is not the NT way. It may exist, but is kept buried. A lot of it is so well buried they do not know it exists, and if you mention it, they have a sudden nightmare while awake.

This is what Psychology calls the Subconcious. We do not have one, that is where we live. What they call Concious, we do not have. That is the babbling of the fore brain the frontal lobes, and ours could care less.

The level we know this is related to children and pets, we think nothing to speaking down to them. The problem comes from respect, giving to others the way we would be treated. It does not work on children, and those you see as functioning adullts want to be treated like children.

It is a natural thing, We treat children one way because we cannot fire them. It is a long term support network, and as your mother knows, with no end in sight, but they do get just a little better, after years. This network is carried over as NT social, where everyone treats everyone as children, and it is close.

We expect them to be adults now, and they run screaming. It is like addressing a Second Grade classroom on the details of sex, with films, slides, and graphic details of all perversions. They are not ready for that stuff, and may never be.

They hmay have a job, an apartment, an education, but they are children playing house in a world with things much deeper than they are capable of dealing with. Their choice of friends is based on them not having to try. They want to be comfortable where they are.

And what do we say to shy little girl with a doll? What a beautiful doll, she is so sweet, what is her name? We never say, she is a lump of Poly Vynal Chloride. When told her name we say, "Hello Mary Jane, so good to meet you." We are not lying to the doll, or the child.

See them all as frightened little children, totally dependant of their illusions, which comfort them, and you will see them right.

Your Mother lives on an illusion that you will grow up, by her measure of such things, and it will all turn out. She may be short on details, but strong on end goals, have no idea how the two are connected, but it helps her sleep at night. You do humor that one don't you? You have doubts, she has doubts, but you play illusion games, of how it will all work out. It is the standard mother child relationship.

What you miss is the whole world still lives there. But they do not have Mommie to hold their hand, so it is worse, they do not have teachers to make the other kids behave, or bosses to tell them what to do.

They are crying for structure, then along comes and Aspie who carelessly knocks the props from under their world.

There are only two ways of dealing with them, Kindergarten Teacher, and Drill Sargent. Most need the Kindergarten teacher.

I have read of your school work, you are a very smart girl, How Dare You!

You are going to have to do something to balance that out, You just do not have it for Drill Instructer. You are too nice, not like me at all. That leaves Kindergarten Teacher.

They are The Legion of Lost Children, and are not able to deal with adult themes. What they seek is a Bigun, a girl who can play fifteen to thier eight to ten. They have lost home, parents all security, and people have been mean to them, they pout.

A Bigun tells them stories and makes them happy, makes them feel safe. Adult is a vauge concept, and it never worked out for anyone they knew. That they can get just a little older, and it is OK, is everything.

First comes accepting them where they are. Girls who talk of boys are playing with dolls. Do not call them lumps of PVC! Tell her what a beautiful dress she is wearing, and how you like her hair. I never got any farther, nor did they want to hear anything else. If she gets a new doll, never mention the last.

Boys have Action Figures, not dolls, cars, the way they dress, it is about the same.

It helps if you carry cookies.

The world is telling them to grow up, if they knew how they would of, but it is not to be, so they are children faking it.

Deal with where they are comfortabe. You are different, but do not be adult. a few years older is about as far as they can see.

Inventor, my therapist told me to be their kindergarden teacher too. How does one do that?

So how much do Therapists get paid? This is my good stuff!

But for you, anything.

First a little background, most of this was developed to pick up girls.

It is the next step method. Do not expect anyone to make any leap of thought, not even to one.

When looked at this way, you have to tell people what they are thinking.

Mary Jane wishes she was back in her room safe with her dolls. But she is in a cafe in New York talking to a stranger. She went out with a stranger, but that does not make them less strange, it just puts her off base.

It is all very complicated, she has never done it, she has tried and failed. She is here because the whole world told her to find a strange man, and let him take her home and take her clothes off. All the time before she was told to keep her clothes on.

So when did she last run naked, and enjoy it? Sometime before school. So what do we talk about. "So tell me about your doll?" It sneeks past defenses built up over years, and brings up fond memories, of a better time, when life made sense. She brings up the name of her doll, a pleasent thought.

Her doll was her friend, played with her, comforted her when she was unhappy, slept with her, and she was never embarrased getting undressed before her doll, or taking a bath with her watching. Her doll is a projection of self, and you think she had a nice sounding name, and repeat it several times. Then you can ask about clothes, for most dolls have more than one outfit, every outfit she can remember is her doll getting undressed, enjoying being naked, for she was getting a new outfit. Some had nightgowns.

Now you are no longer a stranger, you are a friend of her doll. You share a time with her that she was happy, and untroubled about being naked. Her best human memories are being bathed, having her hair brushed, then being dressed. Somene to take care of her. Ask about why her hair looks so good, how she keeps it up, and she loves to talk about herself. Make notes, her shampoo and conditioner, sitting next to your bathtub. She will visit, but stay dressed, she will check out the bathroom, and find her stuff there. Just in case she wanted to come over for a bath sometime. It is stuff she uses when naked.

She is not being hit on, and given a series of comfortable associations. In most of them, either she, or her alter ego, is enjoying themselves, and naked. Slowly she comes around to being a big girl, she will have sex, but you misunderstand, and call it a sleepover. You want her to stay all night. It takes more arranging, and when the big night comes, making them wait is good, you wander off into the bath and start running a tub. You love her perfume, but want to smell her, and taking her you undress her, bath her, dry her, and tuck her in.

You do have to clean up a bit yourself, shave and such, and when you return, if you have hit the big time, she is asleep. Slide softly into bed and smile, you have won her trust. A few glasses of wine, a hot bath, and she may well sleep through the night.

After a morning of getting it together, brushing hair and teeth, dress her, out for a light breakfast, and take her to the zoo.

You have made a friend of the little kid within. Buy her an icecream cone, maybe a doll. She will want to be with you, sleep with you, trust you with her body, and she will get around to sex. Let her, a little at a time, as she wants to.

It is about the same with anyone else. Look for the happy childhood moment. Bring up good associations. Keep the words and concepts simple. Not baby talk, but positive. Little Bobby is worried, he is away from his safe home, and there are strangers, the Kindergarten teacher knows, he does such good finger paint. I wish I could paint like you do. His finger painting may now be office manager, but he likes hearing that he does it well. There are good managers that people hate, and good managers that people love, and Bobby is lovable.

The Army Method. First we are going to tell you what we are going to tell you, then we are going to tell you, then we are going to tell you what we just told you. The Army is wise.

People must be prepared to be spoken to. The Kindergarten Teacher does not just speak, first she says, stop what you are doing and pay attention, then she speaks. Having someone speak that does not want to punish you, says you are doing well, and you can repeat that part, and now, we are going to do one more thing, after we finger paint, we are going to sprinkle glitter on it. Now dosn't that sound like fun!

First you tell them they are being good kids, even if they are not, for it is how you gain thought control.
Then you make positive associations. Then you tell them we are going to have more fun, one little short step different. You are not covering much ground, not demanding any big change, and everything you say they can understand. You are conditioning them to learn. Kindergarten is not about direct learning, but learning by doing, how we all play nice together.

The Peter Principal says, "A person rises to their first degree of incompitance, and stays there."

So you cannot deal with people where they are. They are not functioning because they are there, you have to reach them lower. A lot lower works best. From there, once you have made contact, everything has to be done one step at a time, and slowly.

Your mind may be able to leap two steps ahead, and it seems simple, obvious, but their mind must take evey step one at a time. First we are going to put away the art supplies, then clean the tables, then we will have milk and cookies.

Of the many brain areas, we live in a different set. They live in the fore brain, and the emotional center. We live in the left and right mid brain. The frontal lobes process chit chat, vauge and fast word based monkey chatter, not to any great effect, just to keep contact with the other apes of their group. They are acually driven by the throbbing of the emotional center, Most of their information they act on comes from their eyes, eye contact, reading faces, body language.

Our fore brain, emotional center, are dormant, and we do not use eye contact.

Our centers are left and right mid brain, and brain stem, the killer ape. Logic backed with teeth.

They do fear us, as they fear all adults, people of power, so when we manage them, they are compelled to obey. They are the Kindergarteners, and we are the teachers, and they are well conditioned for the roles.

Next comes, do we want them anyway? I do not deal with them by choice, I knew the girls I got in my bed would not stay. There is nothing in my world to build on. I can reach them, they cannot reach me.

I use it when I have to deal with them to get what I want. They will always be uncomfortable dealing with us, and will make messes because that is all they can do.

Life is not regimented because they can function, it is set up to deal with the unruley.

Greentea, you have mentioned the people you work with, and how horrible they are. Your bosses see it, they are like they are with you, then are Yes Ma'am, Yes Sir, in the bosses office, but the boss knows, if there is anything they can screw up, and get away with, they will, and their eye contact, chatter, and smiles are lies.

I always assume the other person is lying, and let them know that is what I think. I cut off eye contact, turn away from them, and speak. I am using logic based thought, which they cannot process, but they can obey. I will ignore the pleading puppy face, the tears, the pouting lip, and all the other distractions, and stick to the one thing, you must clean the table, or no cookies.

Don't make me get the switch, take this up with your mother, the big boss, you will obey or you are going to be in a lot of trouble. Now don't you really want to be good and get a cookie?

Kindergarteners are held in check, a room full, by one voice, that leads, and says no, and it is both impossible, and not hard. Approval is lavished on them, which makes disapproval hurt.

Now would you rather sit in the corner for a time out, or make party hats with the other good children?

Such are the principals of management, they are shallow weak, and try to bark, but there is nothing behind it but fear. Whole groups can be controlled by a single voice, that praises, and also can be unhappy with their behavior. They do well when reduced to a unit sitting in a desk, and assigned work.

They will try to worm their way out of doing things, but have to understand that you do not change, will never change, and step at a time their life will get worse. Or they can be good, do what you want, then everyone will be happy.

I just do not like them anyway, prefer computers, machines, but sometimes you need one for sex, or office work.

I can manage a hundred in a work setting, and not like any of them. All I want is the work. They are one word from being fired, yet I tell them they are doing well.

There is a gap in my head about "Friends," I do not have or want any. I use people, I socialize, but it is just herd management. There are few people I admire, and that is usually based on a shared obsession. Obsessions change, it never lasts. My skill is, I can get the job done. I expect the rewards that go with that.

Do what I need, or you will be looking for a new job. The boss does not go drinking with the clerks.

Friends, keeping socially dependant people for entertainment, seems a waste to me.

Managing the people around you, is just good common sense. If you are going to do it, why not take the money?

In the choice between making their inner child happy and secure, putting them in a world they understand, or giving them a raise, they are better off happy.