Query - odd speech pattern - ideas?

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Hi, I got referred here from another site where I've been posting regularly for a few years. They felt that posting my query here would open me up to a greater chance of someone having an answer for me.

I'm a parent of a thoroughly Aspie/autistic family. My husband of 30 years is also possibly Aspie.
Two girls, two boys. They range girl, boy, girl, boy, ages 25, 23, 21 and 13. My older son has a lot of trouble mentally multi-tasking, although the others seem fine with trying to do more than one thing at a time. They are all highly visual, especially the youngest who prefers to watch TV with subtitles because it's easier for him to understand. His hearing is fine - but he was reading fluently very young indeed, before he was talking, really. He still prefers to read a new word rather than hear it.

My concern at this minute is his speech pattern. He speaks fluently, clearly, with a vocabulary somewhat beyond his age appropriateness. His early language delay has well and truly been made up for. But I'm hoping someone can help me find the appropriate label for his pattern of speech. My husband does it too (not as much) and also to a lesser extent, my second daughter.

It's worst at the end of the day when meds have worn off; also in the morning before meds kick in, but evenings are worst.

What it is - there are three main issues.

1) He will come to me and say something which is interesting to him but not to me. Example - "I dreamt last night that Daisy [pet budgie] got out of her cage and flew away."
He then will walk out of the room and come back maybe 30 seconds later (not immediately) and add more. "Then in the dream she came back and had another bird with her." He leaves the room again, to go back to what he was doing. But he is back. "This other bird was smaller than Daisy, and a different colour."
What intrigues me is the pause each time - it's as if he is telling me each thought in sequence as it goes through his head. But the pause is longer than you get in normal conversation. I've tried asking him to get all his thoughts together before coming to me and speaking, but this seems too difficult - the thought MUST be expressed as soon as possible.

2) He cannot be interrupted, he MUST finish what he starts to say. We can't help, either. My second daughter will throw a tantrum if interrupted, and yet will not realise she interrupts other people in her zeal to contribute. Example is when she begins to tell a joke we've heard before. We can say, "We've heard it!" We can even utter the punchline, but she still MUST continue and finish what she is saying.
This other night I was talking on the phone to a friend, my daughter was in the room with me and listening to my side of the conversation. I didn't want my friend to realise she was there (he would then have felt more constrained in what he was saying, and he needed to talk) but I had a very difficult talk trying to signal to her to whisper and not speak loudly; and to be discreet and brief. (Plus, I was trying to continue to listen to my friend, I was aurally multi-tasking, and that's not easy). As she began to speak I realised she was repeating what I had just said to my friend, but in different words; I tried to tell her, "I just said that," but she still had to get to the end of the last sentence of what she was saying.

3) And the really weird one - my youngest son (and to a lesser extent, my husband) has an odd pause when he speaks, mid-sentence. It's as if he is stuck for a word (hey, it happens) but the next thing is NOT normal - he will go back to the beginning of his sentence and start again, instead of merely pausing then putting in the word. Or syllable. No "um"s or "er"s. Just a total restart instead. Sometimes I hear the same sentence four or five times before I get to hear it in completion. He plays the piano the same way - when trying to play music, he would seem to get 'stuck' while trying to work out the next note, and he would either continue to play the note he is on (by hitting the key again and again) or he would go back to the e of the phrase, or even the beginning of the piece of music, and begin to play again. When he was hitting the same (previous) note over and over, his piano teacher tried to tell him, "No, dear, you only play that note once, not three times. It's time to move to the next note." Which, of course, was what he was trying to do, and this would provoke a rage.

With all these phenomena, trying to correct them or trying to hurry them up provokes meltdown.

My son is getting really bad with all three at the moment. The non-stop talking as if expressing every thought going through his head - that is really obvious to us at the moment especially in the evenings. I might be busy trying to get dinner for everybody and if he hears me walk past, will call me back to talk. Sometimes he might have something important to say (or ask) so I go back; but a lot of the time he just wants to tell me something which is clearly just his thought of that moment.

We can tolerate a lot within our family, but other people are less tolerant of this and I'd really like to find a way to help them, my youngest especially, get around this so they can function more effectively.

I have a hard time explaining this to the various doctors we see and when you explain it, it seems so trivial. But there IS something odd, it worries me and especially in the kids, I would like to find a way to fix it. Or get a name for it. Even possible names. A more formal label which describes it would be a help. From there, I could work out what to do next.

So - any ideas?

He sounds like someone with typical Asperger's (speaking of what interests him to the point of annoying others, and not understanding when it's his term to speak). His thought at the moment is that, it's good that he wishes to share his interest with you (not good if it annoys you); many with more severe autism keep it locked away inside, and they won't interact with you much at all as socializing isn't our thing, no matter where on the spectrum we are.

Autism and Asperger's are marked with verbal communication difficulties, you're just noticing them. It has a name, and you know its name.

Thanks for the feedback so far, everybody.

My youngest son - he always seems happy to share every thought, with a lot of people. He's never seemed to discriminate much between people he knows and people he doesn't know. I am noticing, however, he is withdrawing more when we're in a very crowded situation. His last school speech day - instead of having lunch with the crowd, he and another kid were shooting baskets out in the playground.

Echolalia - he did that a lot when he was little, with no apparent understanding of any meaning to what he was saying. Then as he began to use language, he would use echolalia as a way to BEGIN to reply. For example, I would ask, "Would you like some orange juice?" and he would reply with, "Would you like orange juice? Yes please."

When my daughter interrupted me on the phone to tell me what she felt was important, she wasn't repeating my specific words, she was instead repeating the same CONCEPT. She was aware of the meaning of what she was trying to say, just hadn't recognised that I had already said it. It was also the desperate need she had to say it to me, even at the risk of my friend hearing and perhaps feeling hurt that anyone else was in earshot.
She is not diagnosed Asperger's but I think that is a mistake.

Palilalia - I hadn't heard this term before. Thank you for the information. What he does isn't a stutter though, it is different. I will look up more info on it in the morning (just after midnight here, I desperately need some sleep!)

When he walks away, he is generally returning to what he was doing - a puzzle, maybe. Or a game. Then he will get up from what he is doing and come back to me to continue the 'conversation', even when I have told him that what he is telling me is only relevant to someone who is playing his game. He can be very single minded in "needing" to continue a conversation on a particular topic - perseverative. He can take hours to get through one of these 'conversations' (they are very one way).
He doesn't go to mainstream school; instead, we have a form of correspondence school where he works from home with me supervising. I have learnt that when I want him to do schoolwork, I still have to wait until he's got certain topics off his chest, out of his head and finally no longer occupying his thoughts. I can't force this. I CAN point out to him, though, that his obsession with a topic is distracting him from starting his work. He is highly motivated to do his schoolwork, he is not using his autism as an excuse, in any way.

I have done my utmost to encourage my kids to value themselves for who they are, including their autism. Autism just means that their brains learn better in a different way, and we just have to help them find that way. Autism may create some difficulties for them but it also brings gifts which are a crucial part of who they are.
It has been difficult to teach this in an environment where their autism was seen as a problem, even something to be disciplined out of them. That is a big reason for pulling him out of mainstream. However, I have noticed his strong determination to study what is 'normal' and try to mimic it, so he can more successfully blend in with other kids. When he was 8, he said to me, "I am getting much better at pretending to be normal." He loves talking to people (unusual) but is often inappropriate. We are teaching him as best we can, the 'tricks' to getting on with people. But this speech thing is a BIG hurdle for him, and for us.

I've noticed that all my children, especially the younger three, 'collect' Aspie and autistic friends. Two nights ago my older son brought some friends home for dinner and the house was crammed with Aspies. It was amazing fun.

Thanks for the info so far. I'll do some more reading in the morning!

all these behaviours seem quite normal to me, in as much as I often do the same. If I cannot complete a statement I am saying immediately I must forget it and start anew if the topic becomes pertinent again. when I was young I would not give up so easily and annoy the hell out of people trying to complete my statement repeating, pausing and restarting until it was said.

I believe it all stems from having a fast and active mind but a deficit of working memory hence unable to retain the first part of a story as my mind is busy turning the second part of the story into something I can say or write in words.

My work colleagues all have a good laugh when I complete stating my thoughts about something 10 minutes after the discussion has been finished and left behind by them

Interesting perspective...I sorta see what it would be like if I had been raised my my Aspieish Mom's NT older sister instead of her.(and my dad)...I was always different...but I wasn't raised with the acknowledgement that I was different...I was raised raised with the acknowledgement that I was fine just the way I was and that the society I was an outcast in was mean and stupid.

Anywhoo...I have very slight echolalia...only sometimes. I only notice it in videos of myself, and I am completely unaware that I am doing it...till I see the video.

I also stop and restart my sentences all the time....Have trouble organising my ideas into linear sentences.....in order to get the point across about something I will often repeat the same statement multiple times...each time adding a bit more detail.....stuff like that.

Interesting.

I'm not sure how NT I really am (same goes for my eldest daughter).

The difficulty arises when we try to raise our kids to fit in with society. This is what all parents do, with their children. Babies are incredibly egocentric but this is accepted. An infant needs to be demanding in order to survive. They also need to be cute, so we don't throttle them in frustration at the amount of demand.

As a child gets older, parents try to steer them into what they consider to be more socially appropriate behaviour. "Don't pick your nose in public", "Don't shout rude words at total strangers." We tend to parent the way we were parented.

When faced with raising a child who is clearly not learning the same sort of things in the same way, but who seems to keep breaking the 'rules', we feel lost and confused. Some parents will respond to this by trying to forcer the child into 'normality'. I am afraid we did try to do with with my older son, but without success. Once we realised - we backed off.

There is a ten year age gap between the boys. The sister in between is (I feel) Aspie, although has no official dx. She presented as a child genius and we encouraged the mental gymnastics and tried to understand the 'oddness'. Others (especially school) did not understand or tolerate it - she was harshly penalised for failing to try to fit in. If they had known of the Asperger's connection, I think they would have been more tolerant.

Like it or not, society has certain expectations of us all. Not everybody is raised to be broad-minded, compassionate or generous. NT people learn (eventually) to walk away from pointless confrontation with the especially nasty manifestations of what is "acceptable society" but this adaptability is not so easy in my younger kids. I have had to help them learn in a different way, how to keep themselves safe.

I freely admit that in the past I have erred too far in accepting the judgement of society (esp the school) and as a result, expected more normality from my kids than was appropriate or right. Perhaps it's the slight Aspie in me - respecting authority, expecting it to be delivered honestly, being too naive and not seeing the deceit in how we were being dealt.

The world is a nasty place. I want my kids to survive. But that doesn't mean I want to cram my kids into the little pigeon-hole of normality and try to mould them into an identical image of acceptability. It would be too cruel to try. Instead, I am trying to work with who they are, and where they are NOW, to give them the skills that they can handle, in learning how to adapt as far as they need to, to take a productive role that suits their personality and talents.

Some unthinking NT parents would try to eliminate all stims. For me, the sight of a small boy flapping his hands in delight as he sits in the water's edge on the shore is a beautiful sight. That was not my son - it was a young friend who otherwise did not obviously stim. Only when he was really happy or excited.

I cop a lot of flak for letting my boys play computer games obsessively. A friend of my younger son's was watching DVDs obsessively, over and over. His father said to me, "There is absolutely nothing going on in his head, what he's doing is mindless." I told him it was not mindless and to let him keep doing it. "Every minute of every day, your son is learning," I told him. "He is finding his own way to learn what he feels he needs to know. This is very productive. And it will not last, at some stage he will move on to watching movies continuously."
My sons learn social skills from watching movies, DVDs and playing computer games. Every so often I chase them away from the games to get them outside and exercising their bodies too, plus getting their daily load of Vitamin D.

What I'm trying to do here, specifically, at this moment - I want to know more about why they do this odd speech thing. If I can I want to help them find a way to minimise it, but only because it frustrates them. There are many things about them that they are comfortable with, which I am not trying to change.

My daughter (the possible Aspie) works behind a cash register. She has to get on with people in the workplace and has already lost one job due to misunderstandings. When you understand why she is doing what she is doing (as I understand) you take it in your stride and use it to advantage, not see it as a disadvantage. To an employer, her extreme 'helpfulness' seems like criticism and undermining of authority. Her current employment requires her to get on with a number of people, a lot of whom find her frustrating. But currently they also value in her the OCD and constant internal calculator, that means her cash register ALWAYS balances, to the cent. Especially when times are busy, they will put up with a lot, for that.

Every human in the world is modified as they grow. We all have to adapt, to live in a social environment. For some, who prefer to remain apart from meeting other people too often, there are still niches where you can be permitted to be as comfortable as possible. But it still requires a certain amount of adaptability to be able to find your way to the best niche for you. Or a lot of luck. or both.

I really do love my kids, and value them for who they are. But I do need to help them adapt, as far as they can without it causing them pain. They need to be able to at least SEEM normal when they need to. My youngest son's comment about "I'm getting better at pretending to be normal" - the social pressure was coming from school, not home. As an individual who has always been incredibly outgoing, it is his fondest wish always to be able to blend in. He acknowledges that this is only a veneer, but his capacity to cope is what he is working towards.

Underneath it all, I have tried to teach them to value themselves as they are. They refer to our family as a "family of freaks" with a big grin. They include me in that label. I happily accept. Even my older (supposedly NT) daughter embraces it. She has a partner who I'm certain is Aspie, although highly adapted in the workplace. he has found his niche. At home, she accepts his individuality and works to fit in with it. I guess it's what she saw me do with her father.

I have seen a lot of discrimination against Aspies - my own kids as well as their friends. I've gone in to bat for them when I could. Society is indeed cruel but we now have tools with which we can defend ourselves. The trouble is, you need to have certain social skills in order to use those tools. Catch 22.

I never told my kids they were different. They asked me why, instead. My older son already knew he was different (he thought he was bad) when at last a doctor told him it was OK, it wasn't his fault. We didn't say anything to the youngest, until he came to me and asked, "Why am I different? Why can I do some things really well, but I'm always getting into trouble at school?" Giving him the information about autism was empowering. I didn't describe it as a disability, only as a different way of learning. They since discovered how to learn in their own ways and I believe they embrace who they are.

As their parent, I need to keep myself informed and supportive, in their determination to adapt where needed, and remain as they want to be where chosen.

Butterflykids,

Apparently there is one thing that AS people are far more likely to do. I have heard of other AS people doing it, and I have had it almost wiped out of my way of communicating because so many found it so wierd, etc...

That is that you may find an appropriate segue or tangent from/of the topic at hand. Interuptions of any sort can cause one to be sidetracked, and you can be reminded of it FAR later! It was not unusual for me to be sidetracked in the middle of a conversation, and continue minutes or DAYS later.

I am not aware of any name for that, but it sounds a LITTLE like your son talking about his budgie. I used to have a couple budgies. I liked them.

BTW I just felt a need to convey information. A LOT of companies have lost money because they haven't listened. Some finally realized that about some things, and finally DID listen. OH WELL...

From what I have gleaned from my reading, plus talking to my husband and youngest son about how THEY feel, this seems to be a combined phenomenon resulting from a number of different factors. My son is quite good at mentally multi-tasking, unlike his older brother who actually doesn't do this, so mental multi-tasking is not the only factor (if at all).

My youngest said, when I asked, "I work out what I am going to say before I say it, but as I talk, I lose the words sometimes." He can't tell me why he goes back to the start but my husband says going back to the beginning (of the sentence, or phrase) helps him (hopefully) grab a hold of the missing word next time around; as if there is some sort of mental/verbal momentum.

It seems to be to be a combination of verbal processing plus mental processing plus mental manipulation, all needing to be conducted at a certain minimal rate in order for this phenomenon to not appear.

In all the family members who exhibit this, it is worst when they are tired. The boys take meds for ADHD which have made a big difference to them in both behaviour and language capability. They feel better able to focus and to stay on task; less frustrated with themselves and everyone else.

Interestingly, my husband said he was "trained out of" using "um" or "er". But then, so was I, and I don't exhibit this trait. He does. Whether he had this problem before being taught to not use "um", I don't know. Whether training him out of it made this worse - I wish I knew.

Is it a problem? It can be. My husband gets frustrated with himself. My son accepts it in himself but gets frustrated with everyone else who finds his conversation difficult to sustain. My daughter has had job problems as a result, and I know there have been past co-workers and supervisors who had a big problem with it, in my husband. I'm sure it has affected his work placements in the past, too.

Some of the information I found seemed to say that this can be trained out of someone, but I'm not sure such behaviour modification techniques are worth the problems they could cause in other aspects. I do not like behaviour modification used to try to minimise something that a person really cannot control well, or at all. Too often, instead of "fixing the problem," it drives it underground with the person learning to "fake it" or find other ways to hide it (such as simply not talking to people as much).

I'd like to find something positive that has a chance of helping, as long as it doesn't involve anything like aversion therapy. A positive exercise to practice, or even something framed as a game - that could be interesting. Or simply a different way of doing things so it's less of a hassle for other people.

Thanks for the info so far. All the discussion etc - all valuable. I definitely have to introduce my kids to you lot!