Theory of Mind BS

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Hi,
I'm an adult 58 years old. A year ago my nine year old son was diagnosed with Aspergers. That got me thinking about my own history. I had/have most of the same traits as he does. I've been doing a lot of research online and at the library. This morning I was reading a book by OASIS, and the first chapter or two stuff about "Theory of Mind". You know, my thoughts, my first thoughts, were like goddamn this crap is so condesending and patronizing and like their point of view is that adults and parents have the right to manipulate their kids into doing anything they want and they always know right and everything they want their kids to do is fine and, you know, when I was a kid my parents tried to get me to accept some BS fundamentalist religion and all kinds of other baloney. I didn't change my mind about about those issues just because I grew up and now have become a father myself.

Anyway, the specific example in the book re TOM is one person gets a weird blue haircut and then asks somebody else how do they like it, and that person is (according to them) supposed to say something like "Oh way cool" even though the truth is they think is stupid looking as my son would say, and the Aspie kid who responds with the truth ie that it's stupid is according to them somehow lacking in TOM. Well, scr*w that. I mean, I grew up and learned to tell the white lies like everybody else I guess, but it has irritated me all along, and people who are smooth talkers turn me off, although of course they do flatter and compliment and make me feel good but still with the undercurrent of my feeling a certain level of mistrust toward them, and anger subliminal about having to operate in such a system.

Anybody want to comment? How about an Asperger Revolution Movement? Take your TOM turkey, Ms. Oasis, and stuff it where the sun don't shine. ha, ha.. Later, Jay

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I question the TOM of the people who came up with the idea of TOM.

I have also had issue with ToM.It seems to me that the theorists who develop this theory are very interested in knowing how our minds work,so they can label it as wrong(majority rules)and try and fix it,so we can be the glib liars,so valued in our society.I also have a very uncomfortable feeling if I feel pressed to "lie".I dont see this as an indication that my "system" is defective,I believe it is more a case of logic..... not wishing to live in a world in which you can not trust the commnication between people.

For me,tha logical action when faced with situations where someone asks you your opinion about something is....teach people not to ask unless they want the truth.My mother told me....."if y can't say something nice,dont say anything".I think that principle would work fine if people would top "asking" my opinion.(and yes,those jeans Do make you a## look big).

The Theory of Mind hypothesis is NT-centric BS as far as I'm concerned. It's part of the popular and bigoted "Autistics are emotionless, uncaring robots" narrative that dehumanizes autistics by claiming that we lack things like "empathy" and that these things we lack are part of "what makes us human." (White lies are a part of what makes us human? ) It is based on a Platonic, essentialistic notion of human nature that nearly everybody subscribes to unquestionably but I consider to be nonsense. Each person has their own DNA and own life experiences and thus there are as many "human natures" as there are people. Species, such as humans, do not have essential natures, a species is a collection of genetically unique individuals that can interbreed with each other

Now wait a minute - this depends on how one interprets "Theory of Mind".

The way I see it, Theory of Mind is simply another way of putting the analogy that Aspies rely on theory (in the first instance) to guide practice as such - to overcome any shortcomings on instinct, especially social. If the theory is wrong, that's like taking the table out from under us and we'll almost drown.

Cognition (the way the mind works) is a general term of which Theory of Mind is a part - and it's critical that this be taken into account in the battle for understanding by NT's. Now putting it in the way JayBones has described it is not correct (I'm not saying Jay said it himself - he's going on another source and that's what I'm criticising, the source). We think differently.

This is a rushed post because it's pension day and I have to head out the door soon, but I felt this needed to be said about Theory of Mind.

Theory Of Mind is a Load Of Old Bollocks...

The discussion of haircut is the part of the talking "about nothing", and in it emotional contact is much more important than the bare facts. And the idea that you dislike this haircut may be expressed more elegant and delicate - and even continue the smalltalk. When I understood that, such things almost stopped to irritate me.


"Autistics are emotionless" is false, probably their emotions may be even brighter than in "neurotypicals". But they of course have some problems with emotional/nonverbal contact - and another people simply will not see their emotions.
I'm remembering my childhood now and realizing that I had to specially learn "natural" way of using voice tone (e.g. smootly changing while talking) and properly express emotions in the smalltalk and control its "context"(now it works right way and I'm looking quite "natural"). Another thing which was realised very long time ago - that I may consider people as "white boxes" (with approximately known "internals" of mind) not as mysterous "black boxes".

Well, I've learnt that to get by I have to lie. "Gee! Blue is just SO you". But it sucks, feels wrong and irritates me massively. And when I ask someone's opinion and they start fluffing me-ugh! How will I ever learn not to dress like a geek?

To me, Theory of Mind means asking "How would I react to this?" and assuming the other person will react/feel close to the same way. Autistics don't process/return nonverbal cues the same way nonautistics do, so it takes more effort to learn and anticipate how other people will react to a statement or action. It's not a lack of Theory of Mind, it's a delay in developing one because of the effort required.

I dont disagree with this but....I think one of the problems with how the ToM is presented to the "professionals" who come into contact with aspies is.....

I know intellectually that not everyone likes the same things I do.They do not espond to the same stimula the way I do but I cant "know" how they are experiencing these things,so I have to "act as if" they would respond to them the same way I do UNTIL they tell me how they do feel or think....ie...I am not psychic...I do not seem to possess this bizarre instinctual information NT's claim to have to pick up on nonverbal communication where another individual is telling them how they feel.....

so.....Hello NT world.....please,"use your words"(as some professionals are so quick to tell autistics who are having a melt-down).

It is also really hard to believe that even NT's have this ToM...because they certainly do and say some awfully cruel things to other people.If their behavioe is not just based on them missunderstanding the other person...that would mean they are doing such things out of cruelty...that is a hard reality to except.(I see examples of missunderstanding and misscommunication every day at my job...........so,perhaps they are not as good at it as they think or they are just meaner then I think?

I think the person who wrote that book is confused. Knowing when to lie isn't the same thing as Theory of Mind. Theory of Mind, as I've seen it explained, is understanding that other people's thoughts/feelings/perceptions are different from your own.

Personally, I'm not lacking Theory of Mind. What I'm lacking is the ability to interpret nonverbal cues. I suppose the two things could look similar from the outside, if you weren't looking all that closely.

Theory of mind is simply perspective taking as far as I know.

Mind over theory topic

I am glad I found this topic. I was also worried that I lacked a theory of mind. I lack the theory of an NT mind, but my mind is sharp and clear. thenks, people, for clearing this up. I cannot believe I was duped, again, by NTs.

Cool, a fellow nominalist.

Among "Experts" there isnt enough consensus and understanding to what things like theory of mind or empathy really are. You get idiots like the OP was talking about. Those people are no experts.

There is a problem with some aspies(and I fall under this at times). That is that we are somewhat unable to differentiate our experiences from other peoples, or, conversely, we fail to understand that others can be like us.

A good example from WP was that spectrum kid that insisted that he was the only aspie here, and that ALL(and not just some) of the people here were faking it. He fell closer to LFA, but its a valid example. In his mind, only he fit the criteria. He even insisted that Tony Attwood wasnt qualified to diagnose Aspergers. I dont think he quite knew who Attwood is.

In short, nobody had it as rough as he(that kid did), in his mind, therefore, it wasnt possible that any of us were on the spectrum.

That is a problem with commonality of mind. Or failure of theory of mind as some might say.

Another example comes from a great book I have by Juanita Lovett Solutions for Adults with Aspergers Syndrome. In it she relates about a man who is asked if he wants tea. He responds in the affirmative, and he is asked to find out if his mother(in another room) wants some. He goes to ask her and comes back saying nothing. So his wife pours only two cups, and he gets mad. "what about my mom?". He mistook his specific knowledge to be common to his wife.

Thats a pretty extreme example, but aspies do it all the time. When we wonder why someone would do <some action> even though its incredibly annoying, we are assuming that they should be annoyed by it too.

And there is the rub. Because NTs have failure of mind with us. Thats why we get asked "what planet are you from?" when they realize that we dont think like everyone else.

I buy into the theory of mind bs