No, We are Not Normal

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Sometimes some people (not everyone, of course) on Wrongplanet treat NTs almost like identical, and distant creatures (especially on a social level). Obviously there are not. They are individuals, just like us. Each with their own positives, and their own negatives. Some are extroverted, and some are introverted. Even through observation one can notice sharp differences in personality between one person and another. What is different usually is how they behave in contrast to us.

Alot of us have serious weaknesses that inhibit us from a normal level of functioning. Say what you will about NTs but this is not the case. Society needs leaders as well as coordinators in various fields and often it is not people with autism traits that are best suited for those positions. Those fields don't include just cruel fields (whatever those are) but charity and social service as well just good people attempting to support their families.

It also should be noted that when people respond to those with Asperger's they are responding to a (very) small minority of people who's brains work literally different from themselves. This is to emphasize that this is not some struggle in comparison to civil rights or the struggle to gain women's suffrage. The question is thus not a battle against an "enemy" but merely a question of what accommodation is appropriate without causing an undue burden on the vast majority of the population.

A final note: "Treat us the same because we're normal" is a very different demand them "give us X because we can't do what everyone else can." There seems to be a comflict between these two messages because of the great reluctance (perhaps out of pride) to label ourselves as "disabled" or "abnormal." But perhaps if we look out of relations with the populace we might come to understand that the problem isn't their lack of compassion but our own disability.

*Webster's definition: normal (for reference)

Last edited by jimservo on 18 Dec 2006, 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If the world was filled with people with Aspies and the educational / social system was designed and had evolved 'of, by and for' Aspies then there would be no "problem." Many social skills would be explicity taught.

The depression and anger are not parts of autism. They are the side effects of having autism and living in a NT society. Social awkwardness is not a part of autism. It is a side effect of living in a NT society.

If an NT lived in a world surrounded by Aspies they would be sad and pissed off and socially awkward too.

Don't confuse a symptom with a cause

I would have to agree with Alicorn,that my "disabilities" are only disabilities in the context of the culture,in which I live.In a society where my traits were the majority,the physical world would be more hospitable to sensery overload....ie...comfortable clothes,low volume and lighting,etc.People would speak to communicate instead of relying on non-verbals.I would not be teased for preferring books over small chat.Being less stressed by an "alian environment"...the current NT world....I would function at my full-potential.I dont "blame" the NTs for being themselves....majority rules,but I do recent people who refuse to believe that there "is" any other way of experiencing reality,then their own.

I agree with that completely.

But the world is not filled with Aspies therefor that entire line of reasoning is moot.



I didn't say anything about depression and anger and autism. Yes, "depression," "anger," and "social awkwardness" are aggravated by living in a NT society* but so what? It isn't going to magically go away. It's there. To stay. It's a natural condition of the reality in which we live. And the social awkwardness is ,in fact a condition of autism. Additionally, certain (obsessional) behaviors, and and unique issues that Austic people have cause them to be prone to anger and depression that others would not be. That's a fact.

Blaming society doesn't solve anything and is entirely pointless. The cause of our problems isn't society. The cause is autism/asperger's syndrome. We have it, it's not going away, and they aren't going away.

*Can anyone tell me what NT society is exactly? By the way are we AT society? Since they are the vast majority of the population, perhaps by these very same arguments they should be angry at us.

I knew I was going to annoy people a bit with this but sometimes it's good to shake things up I think.

Yes, we are normal!

1. How NTs behave compared to us isn't the only thing that can be easily categorized, jim. Another thing that can be easily categorized about NTs is how they behave around those they have identified as being Aspie or autistic. Thus, it's not so hard to understand that we act as though all NTs act the same; it's because they tend to act in similiar ways around us.

2. So, NTs are better leaders because... they work better with NTs? I believe Alicorn hit this nail on the head.

3. It isn't? I'm seeing a struggle of a minority group trying to be accepted by the majority of society. The only difference I see is that the difference between the minority and majority is mental rather than physical, and I don't see how that makes us any less able to be accepted.

FN: We have no delusions about us not being normal, we want to be treated the same because our differences don't make us any less human than an NT. The problem is their lack of compassion regarding our disability. Both cause the problem, but only in conjunction, and only one can be removed.

Yes, but that is because of how we behave. NTs spend the vast majority of their time working with our with other NTs not with people like us. Suddenly when they are presented with someone who often is talking, and presenting things in a way they do not understand nor can they. They can't take classes on how to communicate. That wouldn't make any sense. These people, these individuals themselves, are different. Some are nice, some are jerks, but it's often us who came off as simply jerks, or shy, (ect...).



No. Because as a general rule those on the autistic spectrum tend be socially ackward. It's true, again as a general rule, those on the autistic spectrum communicate better with those who also on the autistic spectrum but that doesn't change the socially awkward problem. Leaders tend not to be people that have problems communicating with each other but people that very much don't.



What does "accepted" mean? This is more of an honest question. It has to mean something, specifically. There has to be an ultimate goal. There are certain reforms that I have supported myself.



We aren't normal, but we want to be treated the same. This isn't necessary a contradiction in this case because I believe you believe AS to be a disability. I am inclined to agree. I am certainly in agreement that having AS, or any syndrome, [important edit] DOESN'T make you less human then someone that has few health concerns.

Last edited by jimservo on 19 Dec 2006, 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

Another factor though is WHO among the NT's are defineing what is acceptable behavior. I was reading an article that was intended to be offensive - but truthful - about how one side effect of the ease of modern communication and media has made things like being trendy and sociable much more prized than would have been even in the more recent past. For instance intellectualism - Aspie or not - is not as prized where a hundred years ago a very smart person - or even a very spiritual one - was seen as different yet respected. Nowadays with Hollywood and the music industry determining the standards has caused the general public to see social skills and fitting in as their primary goals. I often wonder that while people say it was so bad in the past to be very different - was there a bigger range though for people to be slightly "off". Now little kids behaviors are being scrutinized for any deviation from some perceived norm (which now means being most sociable) so early intervention can be done to train the child to be "normal". There are probably NT parents who would NOT want their kid to be a little Einstein but would be thrilled to have a little Jessica Simpson. So in that regard - it may be that NTs may be the majority, but because cultural values shift you can not really use NT majority behavior as a base.

You know, it is INTERESTING! At one point, my house was under attack! BOOM!! !! ! BOOM!! !! BOOM!! !! I checked to see what was happening! ROBINS were attacking my home!

Eventually, I figured the robins were just dumb, and thought they saw other robins in the glass. They tried to intimidate. An example of something like a stim, etc... Looks DUMB, but there might be a hidden reason.

Earlier, the robins hopped around my yard looking up and chirping. A FLIRT! What if you didn't understand?

In a way, it is like NTs are another species.

Ironically, many NTs have problems, so men and/or women are precommitted to others in prearranged marriages, etc... in many cultures. Of course, few if any caucasion cultures still do this. That may be one reason why it at least appears to be mainly caucasions that are affected.

Steve

If NT's are supposed to be such a varied group (introvert/extrovert,ect) than they should be able to adjust to dealing with those on the spectrum iwhtout much difficulty - unless they really aren't as skilled as they think they are.






Good leaders need to get the job done - I can see where some Aspies could make good leaders because they would not be as concerned about becoming friendly or socializing and if necessary have extreme focus at the task at hand. Again it is the extreme sociability factor that is common today that is clouding this issue. I also am not sure that those on the spectrum communicate better with each other - I have seen posts where people admit that the behavior of a person on the spectrum might be even MORE annoying to them than it would to an NT. The communication works best if the two people involved have an understanding of one another. While someone on the spectrum may have more of an understanding though of WHY a person is behaving or communicating in a certain way that is no guarantee of increase of tolerance or ability to adjust.

walk-in-the-rain, I think you are correct about how culture affects what is deemed correct however I disagree that it is really relevant to my post. There have always been outside influencing society. Asperger's and Autism is not an outside influence but a mental condition affecting the brain. One attempt to adapt (and people, both on and off the spectrum do) to outside cultural considerations*. When you are on the autistic spectrum there are things you cannot adapt and change in the ways others can and do. This doesn't mean you cannot try to an extent to change your faults but limits are forced upon you that otherwise would not be. And no that is not normal.

I am aware that many parents have a false idea of what autism is. They think it can be cured and that is a lie. However, in early childhood the brain is capable of changing in a way that it later is not. To say that is merely because they do not want there child to be Einstein is unlikely. A more likely explanation is they wish to reduce the chances of their child ending up in poverty as an adult. A more likely explanation is they feel horrible for the fact that their child seems so lonely (they may misunderstand this, however it seems like a better explanation to me).



Yes, you can. I didn't decide to start using "cultural values" as my basis for this argument. The difference that has usual been described (except occasionally when mocking NTs religious beliefs) is the way we communicate, and the difference our brain functions. Or as the NTs as "them" (the people that oppress us) and "us" (the people that our oppressed*2).

*When one is in a unfree or semi-free state the opportunity to adapt ceases.
*2 In the category "most oppressed people" those with autism would come in very far down in the list

I am an undiagnosed Aspie. I owe a debt of graditude to JimServo because in sharing what was going on with his life, I opened my eyes to what I never understood about my own life. I took all the tests online and scored as highly likely an aspie. Had I taken the tests 40 years ago I can tell you right now I would have been an Aspie through and through without question. I am now 52 years old. IT seems silly to get a bunch of tests done to prove I am an Aspie so I am not going to do it.

I have struggled to work through my issues my entire life, never understanding that I thought differently from the rest of the world. I knew I was different but had no idea HOW different. When I read the information about visual thinking I cried. It was the first time anyone every put into words the way my brain thought and saw things.

I said all that to say this: Alicorn, I don’t agree that the NT world is to blame for an Aspie's anger. That is a complete cop out. Learning how to exist in the NT world is HARD WORK! Overcoming anger is hard work. But it CAN be done. It had nothing to do with NT. It has to do with learning how to control yourself. Yes, it is completely frustrating trying to explain things to people. Sometimes when my husband and I have an argument he wants me to tell him what he said that made me angry. I can't do it. I can tell him how what he said made me feel but I don't know how to say, "You said this." The words leak out of my head unless they are put there vividly with a picture.

The world IS difficult to live and learn it. It was complete torture for me as a child. I had to be in a regular school learning by listening (TORTURE) or reading (I can't remember a thing I read unless it was all accompanied by pictures that described what I was reading.) I forever heard the teachers tell my mother that I had the ability to get straight A’s and they just didn’t understand why I didn’t. I had no way to learn by hearing someone spew words at me. I had even less of a chance by reading. The words went in through one eye and out the other. Put me in a class where we touched and held things and I was fine.

I wish I had gone to a Montessori school where I could have learned kinetically. When I had my IQ tested the spatial part of the test was a perfect score. The tester said I would have probably scored 170 in that area if the test went up that high. Contrast that to my 117 verbal score. How is a child to learn who can't remember what they read or who only learns by touching and feeling and seeing pictures of things?

So in part I agree that if the world had more Aspie input we would have had a better chance at learning. However - once you are 18 years old or so, don’t you think that you then become responsible for yourself? Don’t you think that at that point you need to take stock of yourself and figure out your weaknesses and draw up a plan and figure out how to exist in the world? I mean if what you are saying is true, then DO IT! Stop whining about how horrible the world is and change what you can and ADAPT yourself to what you can't.

If people can’t see your world the way you do then it is up to you to show it to them. Describe the way you think and allow them to ‘see’ your world. My children both read information on visual thinking and now they relate to me much better. They understand that sometimes they were expecting me to do or feel things that I was incapable of doing or didn’t even realize I SHOULD be doing. I wish my husband would read this information. He still sulks because I can’t relate to him on the same emotional level that he relates to me on. He loves me and he loves my quirkiness but he is so clueless as to who I really am and yes, expects me to act 'normal.'

By the way, as far as I’m concerned, I AM NORMAL! I function in the world. I can hold a job. I raised my children, and against all odds, home schooled them so they were not subjected to the same hell I was subjected to, which is an amazing accomplishment as far as I am concerned. I just THINK differently. I LEARN differently. I think I am very special. I think I add a lot to the world around me. I think I help people to see things differently. I think that all the pain I experienced as a child gave me compassion for others.

The only thing is that I am so spatial that I can drive people crazy. For instance, if you asked me how to drive somewhere I would immediately see a map in my head and think of all the different routes you could take and would have to give you a short quiz to see what your traveling needs were so I could plot out your best route. My husband says, “JUST TELL ME WHICH WAY TO GO, LORI!” It's hard to zero in on things sometimes. But it doesn't HURT anyone! I enjoy thinking about all the routes to take.

Aspies are compassionate people because they have suffered a lot of being misunderstood. They can and should take advantage of that compassion.

Look, folks, if you were to look at all the people in the United States a good percentage of EVERYONE would have a problem. How many people do you personally know with: ADD, Depression, ADHD, diabetes, (which can cause mood swings), thyroid problems, (which can mimic depression), S.A.D.D., low IQ’s, psychotics, schizophrenics, Down’s Syndrom, etc? The entire world is NOT filled with NT’s. Trust me. There are plenty of people out there with so-called disabilities. I have a double whammy because I have an auto immune disease that is killing off my thyroid. When I need more thyroid hormone my thoughts get confused. I get lost. I get depressed. I don't go about saying, “I have a disability because my thyroid is dying.” Instead, I have figured out a way to know when I need my meds upped. I learned to COMPENSATE for my weaknesses. That is what you have to do! Put your energy into changing YOU, not the rest of the world!

Life is a process of working things out and figuring out how to grow into the best person you can be. You have to get better at what you are good at so you can be REALLY GOOD at something. And you have to get better at things you are really bad at so you don’t suck at them. LIFE IS HARD WORK!

Stop whining and get to work!

First off, I know I'm new on here--I found a link to this forum from somewhere else and one of the other threads simply BEGGED for me to post a response--so I figured that since I had to register to do that I would comment on some of the other discussions as well. Just to let you know that I'm not some kind of random troll or something.

I agree that much of the anger felt by those on the autistic spectrum is due to the frustration of living in a culture set up for people who think and act differently. However, I don't know how much the "Social awkwardness is not a part of autism" really is true. I guess it depends on how you define "awkwardness". If a culture had evolved for Aspies it would find a way to allow them to communicate with others in a way that is natural, and as you say many social skills would be explicitly taught.

Even as it is, Aspies and other similarly-minded people who may not have a diagnosis but still are socially inept can often communicate among each other better than they can with the general population, as is shown in forums like this. On the other hand, I think that some social skills (particularly empathizing and other, highly advanced "theory of mind" abilities) are "real" abilities in the same sense as being able to easily become fluent in foreign languages or grasp advanced mathematics are "real" abilities. When Aspies communicate it seems to work mostly because nobody presumes the others have those abilities. The question is how much those abilities should be valued in society relative to others.

It's kind of like how almost everyone can learn the level of math required to function in daily life, but only certain people can get as far as a graduate level math course. If there were a society in which 99% of the population had taken advanced college level math, and the job market had come to accept that, then the other 1% would likely have a difficult time. If, on the contrary, this 1% lived in a society with few college math courses, they would fit in better, and could get by fine with just high school or even middle school math (many people do in the world now), but that wouldn't make their level of proficiency increase to the level of those who had mastered the college level courses in the other society. While I consider the basic "theory of mind" tests used to screen for autism in children ridiculously easy (and probably most high-functioning adults do as well), I think that even with years of teaching many Aspies (including myself) wouldn't have the intuitive split-second social sense that most NTs have. I personally don't think that's a problem, because different types of minds have different strengths and they do not need to do everything perfectly to be valuable. However, I don't think that makes the relative difference in social ability just a matter of "the wrong culture", even though I think that our culture does judge people whose strengths don't happen to be in the social area too negatively in many cases.

It's very abnormal for a Canadian to be obsessed with Routemasters. Most Canadians are obsessed with Hockey, or Rock music.