reality question

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Is there a higher chance of a child/adult with an ASD--Aspergers or pdd-nos, to cross over the line and lose touch with reality?

--this question is spawned by a statement made by a psychiatrist that this in fact is the case with kids on the spectrum. He's the same one that encouraged me and team to remove autism label for my son as it is too restricting of an understanding for my son and doesn't capture his potential.

Is he trying to warn me of something? I thought kids were more protected with an autism label? Not that I'm trying to protect him, but isn't it true that kids used to be misdiagnosed with schizophrenia when in fact they were on the spectrum? They can be caught up in their own internal worlds and this can appear to be psychotic. Or, they can have temprorary lapses into a nonreality world.

My son has had intrusive thoughts and some slight paranoia (regarding aliens)--but it's more anxiety induced and he worries about his own thinking. A child with true autism then would not worry about his thinking, but prefer these thoughts or fail to assign any emotion to it? Maybe, then, the child slips into psychosis?

Or, is the pscyhiatrist's viewpoint outdated. He did say pdd-nos not Aspergers. I thought that was interesting. Maybe a lower functioning child/adult could slip into psychosis easier as the lines between reality an dnonreality lose their distinction. Again, I imagine the days when autistics were in fact locked up in asylums and so this statement is disturbing to me.

Thanks for your insights.

equinn

I doubt he'd be talking about the development of psychotic disorders.

He could of meant that it's common for those with ASDs to be detached from "social" reality, i.e., [appears] aloof to others, heavily focused on their circumscribed interest [without caring for other more "normal" things], in their own world, in their shell, etcetera.

The majority of those with Autistic Disorder are socially and emotionally distant to others (it changes over time, but many adults are still like this); when people hear the word "autism", that's the disorder they're usually thinking of. Children with AS can be of a similar appearance [with adequate speech], but they also can be of the verbose, one-sided and eccentric side.

In the context of our discussion, no, this is not what he meant. He was referring to a child with pdd-nos not able to make a distinction between reailty and nonreality.

The reason he was called to evaluate was due to my son's intrustive thoughts and the anxiety my son developed over their fruition, or becoming a reality along with his guilt about thinking such awful thoughts.

The doctor's argument was that he did find NVLD but if my son were in fact on the autism spectrum, a child with pdd-nos might have difficulty discerning between what's a thought in his head and the real world. I guess if one started to believe that the thoughts were seperate from himself--this this losing touch with reality?

He then explained that this is not the case with my son. He was concerned about his thoughts and the anxiety was making it worse. But, he was able to use metacognition, thinking about his thinking. Doctor recommended Cognitive Behavior Training and also added that he would never recommend this with a child on the spectrum because they aren't able to think about their thinking the way my son does. IOW, kids on the spectrum or with Aspergers are not as self-aware.

equinn

Sorry I can't find a decent reference, but I read somewhere that teens with an ASD are more at risk of having a breakdown which could include losing touch with reality - I did when I was 15-16, I thought light-switches were out to get me, saw aliens landing and people in paintings move. I was under a lot of stress at the time, and this was the first time I saw a psychiatrist - while they didn't even think of anything AS related, they couldn't come up with any diagnosis that made sense. How old is your son? Could this be what's going on?

The stuff about kids on the spectrum not being self-aware is strange - many people here are very self-aware. Perhaps this is more likely to be true of younger children with ASD, but probably not all.

I can understand removing the autism label in favour of pdd-nos - some people's idea of someone with autism leaves little room for independent living, friendships etc. This is mistaken, but that doesn't stop it affecting how that person is treated in society.

Autism and schizophrenia are often co-morbid, are they not?

The schizophrenia axis could cause suchs breaks with reality in autistic people.

My experience with teens on the spectrum is that they do tend to escape into fantasy worlds because they are safe there. You gotta remember that we are way behind developmentally in social skills. So this is an issue with kids as they grow to adult hood. I think even high functioning adults struggle with this

I think it's a mistake to remove the label. If you're son is higher functioning, he's gonna figure out the whole thing eventually because it's not like you can beat the weird out of us. Your doctor is operating on a passe definition of autism. It's a spectrum. That's why it's called that, because there are LOTS of manifestations! Change doctors and go with it!

I think I know what he means.

Theory of mind and one's ability to discern the difference between people being real or not, i.e., the child with an ASD will see that no one is real other than his or herself, and everyone thinks how they do (this is speaking generally). Self-awareness is usually impaired in children with ASDs; the reason why so many get worst at puberty is due to gaining this ability.

At the old age of 25 I realized that yes, people actually are "real", and they have their own thoughts that are different to mine.

But not so different--we tend to have very common thoughts, most of us. Don't be fooled--we are more predictable then you realize.

My son is fearful that he will transform into things or that he'll die in his sleep and wake up as a ghost. Things like his. He told me the other day out of nowhere that he told the aliens now would not be a good time to land (he said he thought this in his head). He believes that they could somehow hear his thoughts. The aliens is a big thing with him--one of his major fears. I have to keep bringing him back down to earth. He is only eight-years old.

These fears seem to be more complicated as he ages.

Equinn, is your boy in therapy? If not, I would strongly recommend this for him. If people can have these problems as kids, who knows what they will be dealing with as adults?

There's a RE-ality now? The only alitys I know of are abnormality, habituality and frugality..which happens to be my personal favourite ality.

Makes sense, they do look pretty sinister. The one in my room has two screws in it's "faceplate" placed parellel, like two shiny eyes, watching...for the perfect time to strike and then BAM! as soon as your back is turned, it leaps into action and...turns off the lights! in a fiendish plot to make you stumble into furniture and cripple yourself in an orgy of pain and misery and perhaps some confusion. Is there no limit to their evil? We're doomed! DOOMED I tell you!! !
But wait, I have candles! We may yet survive! Rejoice, all is saved! But does anyone have any matches?

equinn,

Children with NVLD don't have this [severe] impairment in empathy/theory of mind, and this is what your son was diagnosed with, right? NVLD is an ASD, it's just different in its symptoms and severity than Asperger's/Autism.

From here:
*Asperger’s and Autism share primarily the difficulty of recognizing the existence of others—trouble with theory of mind. Asperger’s can talk; autism usually has limited speech.
*Asperger’s children appear less interested in forming bonds and have more trouble with “theory of mind” than NVLD and Sematic-Pragmatic Disorder.

It sounds like your son is having anxiety related thoughts, and no matter where on the spectrum one is, Asperger's, NVLD, or Autism, anxiety is a common occurrence. It's interesting that he fears that they can read his thoughts (see: they think how I do), that itself can indicate an impairment in theory of mind, and NVLD has such, it's just not as severe as AS/AD (as I've said).

I remember I had immense fears of dying when I was 6, no specific fears other than fearing the concept of death.

Equin, I don't know much about the science behind all of this, but based on my own experiences, I think I may understand your boy's thinking. Ever since I was a young child, I was a person who projected as many possibiliies into my head as I could and thought them through, even planned that they could be real. But that doesn't mean he really believes in their reality, just in their possibility, and many possibilities can even cause anxiety.

Aliens was a big concern of mine for the longest time too. I don't think I truly outgrew it until I was at least twelve. There were other things too, some grounded more in reality, like the possibilitty of my parents splitting up, of someone in my family getting killed in a car crash...ect. Then some other more "paranomal" fears, aliens, ghosts...ect. I didn't believe in hell, but that gave me a few sleepless nights too. It's not really that unusual for an 8 year old to think about those kinds of things anyway. But your son, like me, just may take it a step further by being a chronic "What if?" thinker. I'm not sure if that's a spectrum trait or not, I seem to remember my very NT nephew being the same way, mabe worse, as a kid.

Constantly considering so many possibilities may make difficulties in life, like in decision making, in judging, it certainly causes anxiety. But I don't recall ever subscribing to any of them as fact with no proof of their reality. Fortunatly I havn't been proven that aliens exist yet. But it can give a person some stregths too. It always seemed to give me a little bit of an edge in solving unusal problems, it made me postpone judgment (which is good because I so often misread social cues), it also makes me a little bit argumentative when people jump to immediate conclusions about things. Considering alternatives may seem unusal to more efficient thinkers, but people like your son are a little more prepared when life throws them a curve, or when the first obvious solution to a problem doesn't work. When other people are puzzling over why the solution didn't work, your son may be ready with a much more creative solution. And I really do think he'll outgrow thinking of aliens, at least as an immediate threat. Eight really is very young to determine how out of touch with reality a person is. Remember, many kids close to this age still believe in Santa Claus, or the monster under the bed. I know more kids are starting to act more sophisticated these days, but that doesn't mean that when they go to bed, they don't think about weird, scary, or magical things too. Your son just seem less inhibited in talking about them, which is the only aspie trait I can see in this situation.

A neighborhood bully once told me aliens would crawl in my window at night and kidnap me. This was in 1962, before abduction cases were being reported. How did he know? Oh, GOD! HOW DID HE KNOW?!?



Agreed. There were many things I loved to think about and consider, that I knew intellectually were not real, yet I'd lay awake at night and worry about them anyway. Werewolves, mummies, that giant spiderlegged eyeball from Johnny Quest...



Ever enjoy just f*****ng with people's heads who are so smugly confident in their beliefs? I love the opening scene of DOGMA, where Loki (Matt Damon) is arguing theology with the nun.




Most people sleep right through the whole abduction experience, anyway...



It might be therapeutic to encourage him to use these ideas in a creative outlet, like drawing pictures or writing stories.

I really am having a hard time wrapping my head around terms like "theory of mind" There seems to be an entire school of thought among SOME psychologists convinces them that all Autistics, including Aspies are so disconnected from the everyday world that we can't even hear them talking about us. Personally, I think it's they that are removed from reality and have their intellectual heads so tightly plugged into their sphincters that alternative viewpoints can't get in.

I don't know, im not sure- unless there is something wrong and the child is experiencing distress, that therapy is good for young children. Around here they all get put on Ritalin which is not the answer.

I would definetly agree with Daniel that its anxiety that he seems to be experiencing.

I don't know anywhere near as much about ASDs as everyone else, but healthwise is there any chance he is worried about these things and they are becoming integrated into his imagination? Or that he has seen something that could have gotten into his imagination? I know that when I was a child, I used to get really scared by things I saw, on the rare occasion I went to a friends house and they put on a something that I hadn't seen and was too old or was scary it could get inprinted on my brain and get into my dreams and thoughts.
This can still happen to me now and im 20, it certainly happened to me when I was young, the first time it happened I was 3 or 4 and I had nightmares and bad thoughts of Zippy and George from Rainbow. I've only recently accertained what happened.

Is there any chance your son has seen anything to do with aliens? Or ghosts? At school or a friends house or anything like that? I think its common for people on the spectrum to have fantasy worlds and believe and escape to other places, I guess it becomes a problem if those beliefs become frightening.

I hope that makes sense, I struggle to put thoughts to words.



Then again (This took me a long time to write and more people have added there replies) if this sounds completley stupid and everyone elses sounds much more likely remember I am a girl and quite a wimpy one at that.

The famous Betty & Barney Hill abduction took place in 1961. Interesting thing was, they didn't publicize it until 1964. Maybe aliens were abducting your bully and he 'guilt-projected' the experience onto you.

j/k

Some argue that the whole "alien abduction" scenario is a crock. Skeptics say these experiences reflect serious mental disorders in the people who report them. Sleep paralysis, etc.

But then how to explain the similarities in the cases of people separated by both time and space? And the fact these abductees couldn't possibly be in cahoots with one another?

Sleep paralysis ... very close to a documented & confirmed phenomenon in Atlantic Canada. The "hag-attacks." Supposedly a terrifying nocturnal assault by an incubi or sucubi, depending on the victim's gender. I wonder if there's any overlap between supernatural happenings and extraterrestrial happenings.