Autistic Learning

Post Reply New Topic

Well, I haven't created a topic for a while, so I figured I might as well.

I decided to look up info on autistic learning styles, and found this:

University of Wisconsin U.S. Psychology Dept (Learning in Autism by Michelle Dawson, Laurent Mottron, and Morton Ann Gernsbacher)

Though this appears a little one sided, Michelle Dawson is a autistic researcher with Autism and a Ph.D. Though the PHD IS in "Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering".

Anyway, I always considered the educational system to be run by IDIOTS! I STILL do. Many have echoed that opinion, and "teachers" THEMSELVES have been quoted as saying things along the lines that the educational system is primarily designed to make workers comfortable and content with the status quo.

One of my pet peeves is that Teachers should concentrate on application , and making things more fun, to ENCOURAGE learning. Again, I have heard others echo this opinion. I have seen that lots of people have problems with learning things. If you want proof, just go into a populated area, and listen for 5 minutes. It is CLEAR! You don't even have to speak!

Still, the following quote from that article seems interesting!

Though I am usually NOT that bad, that describes me(Sadly I wasn't exposed to math that much so early though)! I guess those with AS are LUCKY in that, as I have read elsewhere, many AS interests center around more academic subjects. Who knows, maybe DESIRE has more to do with Kanners<>Aspergers than almost anyone suspects.

So are NT people SUPPOSEDLY less subject to such whims? If so, why can so many not speak a decent sentence? Why do so many "PROGRAMMERS" not know about computers? I make that last point as I am a programmer that has interviewed literally THOUSANDS of people. FEW are ones I would really want to hire.

BTW Can I call attention to the fact that asperger is quoted as saying ORIGINAL learning, and talking about something that is near impossible to do by rote? It also spoke of parents trying to teach their autistic kid to speak. They FAILED BUT, when the kid finally spoke, his first word was one THEY didn't try to teach!

Ha! I knew I was right. I, and another few children that I've heard of through accurate anecdotes first started speaking in an emergency situation.

I'll reply in greater depth later (busy), as I had massive amounts of difficulty in learning (apart from mathematics).

Glad you liked that! Yeah, it IS interesting. Like I implied in my last post, and said at other times, even the dumbest(No offense to anyone meant) may be smarter than they let on.

Desire and comfort seem to affect autistics(AS people included) more than others. I am, of course, including myself in that number. The paragraph I quoted speaks of desire, and I have already said how comfort can affect me in what I can only call a meltdown.

The article, for example, speaks of how a child would speak sentences without any apparent knowledge of specific identification. Once the idea of such identification was learned, BANG! The details were filled in and it made more sense even though it was the same statement with a proper structure.

I do like it, it's a good article.

Many of the parts are similar to my experience (this is going by my mother's observations, and mine in later life): I had difficulty in learning to do everything, enough so that my psychiatrist deemed that I would have had a substandard IQ under the age of 4. My mother tried to teach me how to tell my body parts and age around two, and I never got it, nor did I respond (she kinda thought that I was a little "slow" mentally, but that my advanced physical ability was my offsetting ability); out of the blue I began telling the time when I wasn't being taught--my mother described such as leaps and bounds. The same with learning to read and write in grade 1, 2, and 2 [repeated].

In grade 8 music, without study, I received an A+ in one area; reciting a clapping pattern that the teacher had us to copy. I was one of the few who got it perfect. Everything else was a C or less from then on (D or less from grade 9 onwards).

I also started talking in sentences at the age of 4 1/2 due to an emergency situation, to the shock of my mother; I obviously knew the words.

I'm of agreement that mainstream schooling isn't useful for those with Autism and Asperger's; the latter probably have it easier due to a more "normal" cognitive pattern (it's still of an Autistic pattern however, just not as profound). Primary/elementary schooling is better than high school and college, the latter two were and are impossible for me (even though I have a high IQ on standardized tests); the former is better, but it could still be improved for [all] Autistic individuals by focusing on our strengths, and nurturing those strengths to create people who are beneficial to society--they bring with them intelligence that is greater than the normal population in many ways, just as the normal population has greater ability in other ways.

WOW, maybe Alex will notice this. You seem to be showing a side you generally don't.(That's a compliment, by the way) Somehow he thought I was against you or something, though I never was. I just like things realistic.

Again, it IS interesting about 2nd grade. Sometime between then and 5th grade, many autistics/AS seem to do worse. I was no different, though with me it started in 3rd, and I just stopped necessarily getting straight As, though it did drop a bit during highschool, with no work. With highschool, I was really given little chance due to moving, etc... When I had an incentive in the 10th grade, I got straight As, and got on the honor roll.

A girl on youtube(Diagnosed AS) said the same. She spoke of how she did SO well and teachers were musing about what might happen, but then she just stopped improving at that rate. She looks at the people she considers joyless, that seem to have kept going, and is happy she didn't end up the same.

I DO wish there was a STANDARD curiculum, etc... Kids TODAY have it relatively easy in the US. At least a LOT of places on the internet have the requirements spelled out, and you can get details.

If I was going to school today, I would try to study like 2 years ahead, and probably get straight As. "Polynomials? That's NO FAIR! They didn't discuss that in my LAST grade at my last school, but LUCKILY, I studied that THE YEAR BEFORE!! !! !! !" That would have been NEAT!

Besides, some grades, like #6, I never seemed to know what homework was assigned. In the earlier grades, I just didn't bother, and STILL did great. I don't know if my ignorance of the homework was due to my interests, or what.

AND, when all is said and done, my job makes me over about 3 times what the average teacher makes, and really only requires the abilities I had in the 2nd grade. FORGET history, geography, higher math, etc.... HECK, I was ahead of the average 2nd grader in English, and the average second grader was ahead of the average adult today.

Not that I am saying anything against history, geograpy, or higher math. In fact, at the time, I wanted a job that WOULD have required higher math. Also, I would do ok in geography and it is nice for my job. It is just interesting that they are so inconsistant, don't concentrate on important subjects, and have ones few need and will thus likely forget.

Well, partly an odd article.

I understood only half of it anyway. I'll read it again later, because today's not a day for such stuff.

But, is this article, utterly simplified, about the ability to learn from people and to learn independently?

Because then, yes, I cannot learn from people or from the systems they impose on me. I need to figure things out myself.

What I got out of it was that Autistics learn differently, and tend to have a FAR easier time learning what they WANT to learn.

Also, if they are taught something, they may already know it, or learn it independently, and surprise you.

In any event, it fit ME well enough and, obviously, fit Daniel well enough, and it was written by an autistic autism researcher, so I figured it was good enough to post.

BTW Sorry for the third person stuff here. I do the same when talking about whites or males, and I am a white male. It is simply the way I write.

The last paragraph sums it up nicely...

Gee, I have been saying the SAME though for almost 40 YEARS! I simply thought it was a potential, etc... that ALL kids had! I STILL wonder, but they really SHOULD heed this. Then again, I guess they just want most to meander through their jobs doing mediocre work. Ironically, JUST like THEY, the "teachers", are doing.

Ah, interesting. That second idea isn't new to me. I have heard that statement quite often and was actually asked about it by professionals too.

I think that is where the idea comes from that if you teach an autistic person something, you really ought to connect what you want to teach them to something they're already interested in (for example their special interests and obsessions).

Anyway, I have the impression that it holds true for many people on the spectrum. I think I'm just pretty much the exception, because I have an as hard time or an as easy time to learn what I am not interested as I have when learning what I am interested in.

Without any previous knowledge about mechanics I learned how to fix my car at around age 17. I didn't just learn "symptom a +b is usually solution C". I had a haynes manual and studied how each part of the engine worked, how relays, rectifiers, and other electronics worked. Once I was able to picture the complete system I could diagnose the problem. This was in a matter of weeks, I was still undiagnosed. People just thought I was smart. Once Im dedicated to something I dont stop.

This was always natural to me. I still fail at some simple things, like dishwashers.

Last month I learned alot of music theory and started to learn sheet music, how nodes/antinodes effect tone and scale of solid instruments. All because I got really interested in making Hang Drums (like a steel drum). I got sidetracked making a solar stirling engine which I think I will actualy complete.... as long as th ride on walking spider inspired by theo jensen dosnt take its place too soon.

Still cant figure out the dishwasher ......

Good article. Unfortunately, it reinforces the notion that NT researchers don't know what the heck they're talking about, mostly. Allow me to present an flawed take on the NT view of intelligence, as rendered by the wide variety of IQ tests available.

I took a verbal IQ test when I was 14 and it showed me as way low, only a couple deviations above mean, 98% or so. I know because I self-administered written IQ tests, and like the online jobs we have nowadays, I've never gotten less than 3 S.D. above (my highest was a written one for adults, it had me around 180 (+5 S.D.), I did it in 30 minutes at a WaldenBooks when I was 13). The huge difference between these is that a verbally administered test is 50% communicating with another person. I have trouble with conversations, I even have trouble writing sentences and paragraphs; if this difference makes me "less intelligent" by 1-3 deviations, then the numbers on so-called retardation (more than -2 S.D.) in the autistic population would be skewed up.

One to three deviations lower, against a measure of two deviations lower as defining retardation, renders most thinking on autism obsolete. Think of this like a handicap in golf, the shift amounts to 15%-75% of the population in a normal distribution, and since I.Q. 100 is referenced to the mean, this shouldn't be too far off. The estimation was that 25-70% of autistics could be qualified as suffering retardation. I can conclude - using faulty reasoning - that the real number is between -50% and 55%; ergo, it is almost as likely that no one with autism suffers retardation. All fun with numbers aside, I suspect that IQ tests are good measures of NTs and dangerous measures of Aspies. The idea of someone with an IQ of 116 and AS being mentally ret*d in the text books is terrible, but it rings true to me. Autistic people I've met are usually bright, and are usually treated like idiots for social reasons.

Before I heard of Asperger's Syndrome on NPR regarding the creator of Bit Torrent, I always felt a close connection to those with autism precisely because of what is called "autistic learning". Blew away all the smart kids in school without tryiing, and would get sulky if I didn't have the highest score on a test. Did terrible at "mechanical" learning, don't really understand how one learns that way; always assumed that stupid people had to do that to learn, and that was why they all took so long and the teacher didn't have time to answer my questions about related issues not covered in the curriculum. Solved quandries about life and universe that seem to plague NTs to the grave. Think Aspergers is a blessing, wouldn't trade it for all the friends in China.

NTs can't keep up, and when they act astounded, I usually compare my learning abilities to the athletic abilities of individuals like Tiger Woods or LeBron James - it isn't fair to put me in a group without a capacity for "magic" learning. I finished my AAS in Industrial Ceramics with a test average of over 100% in my Ceramics classes; if I care to learn it, I master any field of study. In the "real world", most NTs seem more concerned with liking each other than getting things done, so my Aspie skills are worthless, but they play great in academic settings!

I completely understand the frustration with the system. I began school brilliant and left, barely alive, feeling like a blithering idiot and with my innate curiosity in a coma. I must interject, however, that your frustration is aimed at the wrong group. I know many teachers well and have worked in education (not as a teacher) and can tell you that they are every bit as frustrated with the status quo as we are. (Most of them anyway, you must allow that there will be losers in any bunch.) Teachers are squashed between many career ambitious, sycophantical paper-pushers and unreasonable parents. They bear a thankless and nearly impossible load. I never cease to wonder at any of them sticking it out, but they do for the love of their students and of learning.

This perspective, btw, is not only one of an adult experiencing the system, but of an undiagnosed Aspie (and likely Dyscalculic) who went through the daily nightmare of school. Even as a student, i could see that most of my teachers really cared and wanted to do right by their pupils, that they did all they could, but that they were often thwarted by the absurdity of their superiors and the screaming demands of crazy parents (thankfully the minority, but a LOUD one and one to whom admin. usually kisses up).

Yes, the system reeks. But let's aim any efforts to effect change at the policy makers and not the ones who are forced, along with us, to tolerate the collective stupidity.

Like a lot of cases, people INSIDE are often promoted. So a "worker" CAN become a policy maker! ALSO, in the US at least, they are UNIONIZED! Whenever they threatened REAL change, teachers went on strike! So don't think the teachers are forced. Collectively, THEY have been the ones doing most of the forcing.

The dumb students may benefit to a degree(Though far less than they could), but those really wanting to learn can easily get frustrated, and even lose interest. They don't even have standards, so people that move don't know how it will affect their education. They do EVERYTHING they can to increase costs, and then claim they must cut back because costs are too high. INCREDIBLE!

And some people almost claim that the brain has like 3 huge growth spurts. If it is stimulated, future learning can become easier, and you can learn a LOT! If it isn't stimulated a lot, it can be pruned back, and learning can become far more difficult. HECK, most of the growths are called DENDRITES That comes from the greek word for TREE. That describes not only how they look, grow, and work, but apparently also how the growth is managed. If they want to get paid for "teaching" they should at least present kids with the best chance for growth to occur, and cut back on the pruning.

BTW I never claimed anything in this article was really new. I don't really know how new it supposedly is, though it references stuff in 2006. It was merely interesting none the less, and officially says things a lot of you probably knew, just as I did. Apparently, it was published in August 2007...

http://psych.wisc.edu/lang/pdf/Dawson_A ... S_2007.pdf

Zukenkerl wrote:

She doesn't have a Ph.D.

To this I respond with a quote:

How do you mean that it is low? It means only 2% of the world's population have that IQ or a higher IQ.

I found a site claiming she did.