A possible Autism cure that I saw on TV

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You know how in the movies, scientists and evil organizations condition the minds of people to be like... assassins. You know how children learn and develop ideas and views and learn based on their parent's guidance, they adopt their religion and values from their parents?

I saw this being discussed on TV last week. The scientists(forgot his name) used this hypothesis based on this concept.

The idea is to condition the child into behaving appropriately in social situations and the workplace when they become adults. The child would be sent to an institution, placed in a room to watch videos on how Normal Thinking persons behave and speak. How to communicate with others. The proper way to dress and fit in. The proper way to behave and socialize. They are rewarded for doing well, and punished for acting out of line. The child is also conditioned to watch certain programs that shows how their peers of their time behave and dress, and what their interests are. The child is also reminded to discern whether or not their special interests are appropriate both socially, and in the future when they grow up. If the special interest is not appropriate, then it will be discouraged. The child is taught about romance, and how to approach others of the opposite sex. The child is also going to learn how to adapt to enviorments where they feel uncomfortable. Florescent flickering lights, the smell of garbage, and loud popping noises. The idea of this is for the child to grow used to these enviorments when they go to school or work. The child will be allowed to work through routines, but doctors will try to alter his routine, to remind him that not everything in life has to be on a schedule.

There are reinforcement measures though. If a child has a meltdown or a temper tantrum, he gets reprimanded. If he stims in public, he gets reprimanded. If he says or does something socially inappropriate, his favorite toys get taken away. He is not allowed to engage in things that may not prove to be age appropriate for people his age, such as watch Barney at age 14. If he has special interests that is determined to not be socially appropriate(such as a fixation with toenails) or something that may not help him in the future, then everything that relates to such interests are taken away.

To some, this may sound cruel. But I might have seen this to be a possible effective treatment.

What if the conditioning treatment became a common medical practice for autistic children? Do you all think it would be effective? What do you think would happen if this is used to actually cure autism?

What are your views on this type of treatment?

Last edited by Snivy on 01 Mar 2011, 1:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Sounds more like a way to increase the suicide rate.

First, I don't think there ever can be any "cure for autism". There will never be one cure that works for everyone with autism. Treatments for autism (including any possible "cures") need to be individualized to the person.

Many people with autism have various sensitivities. No cure or treatment along the lines of what you suggest here is going to work if those sensitivities aren't addressed.

Personally, that particular "cure" for autism that you suggest sounds like abuse. A cure that's worse than what it cures is not a good thing. What good is a cure for autism if it leaves the former autistic emotionally screwed up? Which I think that would with some children.

Was this scientist named Mathew Israel, by any chance? He's the psychologist who runs the Judge Rotenberg Center, the only place in the U.S. (possibly the world) that uses electric shocks as a behaviorist way to control autistic people. It's pretty barbaric and many advocacy groups have tried to get these shocks outlawed bit all attempts have failed. He must have some powerful friends in Congress.

As for the other interventions, none of those make the person less autistic but some of the interventions help in social situations. No matter how many episodes of Hannah Montana my daughter watches, she's never going to start acting like any of the kids on the show (which is fine with me quite frankly) but that and similar shows do give her questions to ask me about :"why did she say this?" and "why did he do that?" which helps her understand other kids better.

I do try to help my daughter deal with life's many uncertainties and upsets. Things smell. The best laid plans go awry. And so on. Sometimes this makes her melt down and she is slowly learning ways to cope that either avoid a meltdown or let it happen in a safe place. I would never dream of zapping her as punishment for a meltdown. That's just awful. I don't punish meltdowns at all. My goal is to guide her to avoiding them when possible, having them in a safe place when not. I also prep her for new situations with social stories. But social stories do not make her any less autistic. They merely give her a set of expectations and something like a script so she knows roughly what to expect and some expected ways to act and react in particular situations.

Your mildest suggestions amount to social stories and guided interactions in social groups. These are pretty typical educational devices used with autistic kids (not shocks!! !). But it doesn't make them any less autistic. It just gives them a template for social situations and a set of coping strategies.

I don't discourage my daughter from stimming in public. I merely show her how to reign it in a little so it doesn't adversely affect other people. Waving her arms is fine. She just has to pay attention that she is standing away from other people when she does this so she doesn't accidentally hit them.

I also make no attempt to control her special interests (although I would if one of her special interests negatively impacted others such as if she started stalking somebody..but I see no evidence this will happen). If other girls her age are listening to Justin Beiber instead of the soundtrack to Winnie The Pooh, that's fine. I'm not about to yank away her Pooh music just because others her age have moved on. There is no reason for that. Doing so would not make her NT. It would make her miserable. If she got interested in toanails, that would be fine too. I would merely teach that it not negatively impact others...she couldn't go grabbing toes of strangers on a beach.

As long as other people are not negatively impacted (and thinking "that's weird" doesn't count as a negative impact) I say live and let live.

The fatal flaw in this is the plasticity of socially acceptable behavior. In some cultures, it is socially acceptable to amputate the hand of a convicted thief. Or to pledge your 12 year old daughter as a bride to a 50 year old. There are no invariant quantitative measures of socially acceptable behavior that would allow a just application of the zap-o-matic. Perhaps you should be zapped for proposing such a heinous idea.

I think in that case it's individualized. He did say something about observing the child's behavior, and discerning whether or not it's appropriate for the real world.

I can agree that the cure is a bit out of line, but in my psychology class, treatments for illness from the past and even up until the present is considered abusive. In the pasts, doctors have been known to electocute mentally challenged people, or dissect their brains, and now doctors of today are perscribing pills as an instafix. Not saying perscribing medication is bad, but if a person has a problem in his life and not clinically depressed, then the doctor pops pills for him anyway.

I did like the concept he's getting at.(I'm not advocating it, I just like how he got to the idea) It's the same practice that extremist parents play on their children and make them adapt to religious values. It's also the same practice(please correct me if I'm wrong. I read it in a book) that the military placed on newly recruited soldiers. Conditioning soldiers to kill when necessary to the point that if they had to kill their mothers/wives on command, they'd do it.

Last edited by Snivy on 01 Mar 2011, 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

There's nothing new about this (behaviorists have been trying it for decades), and it doesn't work in the long term. Especially because autism isn't a social condition, it's a cognitive/perceptual condition that affects social things among many many others.

I rather prefer biofeedback for the same end without the sadism.

I think the people of the future will judge current over-use of pharmaceuticals as harshly as we judge the past use of lobotomies and shocks. (Shocks being in the past everywhere except Judge Rotenberg Center.)

Shocks are still frequently used: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy

There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

People are prosecuted for treating animals like this because it's barbaric.

It is cruel, and I doubt it ever would be effective or a 'treatment' (whatever that's supposed to mean).

That, or half the poor kids this scientist "treats" will end up suddenly snapping and taking out innocent people all around them. I don't usually have much sympathy for that sort of crap - but, you know, if some kid was treated that way, I don't think I could blame them if they snapped. I'd really believe it was the fault of those who "treated" them, who wound up the spring so tightly and then aimed it at the world.

How can anyone not consider this child abuse of the vilest sort?

The desire to treat helpless children in this way is clearly a psychological disorder and must be treated. The affected individual(s) must be zapped every time they express such a desire, until they have learned to keep such obscene imaginings to themselves, at least.

Electroconvulsive Therapy is totally different from what the OP is describing (and from what Judge Rotenberg Center does). Electroconvulsive Therapy does use electricity, true, but the reason, the method and the outcome are totally different.

Reason:

OP/JRC: to punish a particular behavior in the hopes that the person will stop doing it to avoid future pain

ECT: to induce something like a controlled seizure which for some reason has been shown to help with some cases of depression. I don't know why it works but a friend of mine had it done and she honestly did feel less depressed afterwards.

Method:

JRC: electrodes are placed on the skin. They deliver an intentionally painful electric shock to make the person stop doing something or fear doing it again in the future

ECT: anesthetic is used specifically to avoid pain. My friend said it didn't hurt at all. Unlike punitive shocks, it's not meant to.

Outcome:

JRC: I've heard and believe that the people given punitive shocks do in fact stop doing the behavior. Torture works to change behavior. Mathew Israel calls this a positive outcome. But I think the damage done to psyches by torture negates that.

ECT: It really does help some people with depression. Many really do feel better. They don't will themselves into faking "better" because they fear future pain (as is the case with punitive shocks) but because the controlled mini-seizures have caused some sort of actual organic change. That's a positive outcome. The negative outcome is some memory loss. My friend had that too, but felt it was worth it on balance. Others who have more severe memory loss might wish they'd never done it. So it depends on the person. But the negative outcomes are from the organic damage of memory loss, not the psychological trauma of being tortured.

Can everyone not look at just the zapped part? Instead try to look at the methods of conditioning children to behave like NTs do. They are trying to wire their brain with conditioning so they can decrease autism symptoms and try to make them act on social situations instinctively like a NT would, preparing them for real life socially, and employment. They are teaching children how to behave in school, work, and in real life. Teaching people how others their age dress. How to behave like an adult.

Last edited by Snivy on 01 Mar 2011, 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

When I was little my parent would smack me for cussing and hitting my little brother it hurt like hell but I never stopped swearing or hitting my little brother. I am sure if they applied electrical shock I still would have been cussing and beating my little brother good percentage of Aspies have a high pain tolerance so you would have to really shock the s**t out of them to get them to register the pain.

If you think shocking children to train them is a good idea maybe you should do a two year study where you apply shock to your genitals everytime you have a bad idea in hopes of breaking the habit. I will assume from your original post you are full of bad ideas and will have very sore naughty bits by the end of the two years.