Link Between AS and Gayness?

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21 Jul 2008, 6:47 am

Ok let me put a proposition to you all on this one.

I often joke about being a heterosexual woman, but that, since the menopause hit, I can't always remember how to tell the difference.

Underlying that is a truth of sorts.

As I get older, more comfortable in my skin, and less at the mercy of social conditioning, I cease to give a flying fig which gender I am percieved to be (I usually identify myself as a drag queen trapped in the body of a woman these days), or which gender I am attracted to.

I know a LOT of gay people (long story). We have a lot of political issues in common with the gay community in the 80s, and can learn a lot from them, we also have a lot of social issues, such as susceptability to bullying in common.

BUT

Gay people are certainly not all Aspies, and Aspies are certainly not all gay, in fact there may be no real relationship whatsoever between the two states of being.

I suspect the reality is that that, in general, like gender identity, gender orientation (whether bi, gay or str8) is more specific and "hard wired" in NTs than in Aspies.

Just a thought.

M

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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21 Jul 2008, 7:32 am

agmoie wrote:

Yes gay males and Aspies have brains wired differently-from each other.
Aspies have a dominant left male brain and gay males have a dominant right female brain,female aspies have a dominant left/male brain and are often bi or lesbian.
NT hetero non Aspergers males have more similarities in brain wiring with gay males than we do.

I agree. If the wiring were similar or the same there would be many more males with AS because there are many more gay males than males with AS, at least, that we know of.

Regarding women with AS, it's been noted that women in general tend to be more bisexual than males so this would correlate well with that statistic. It's not the fact that we have AS, it's the fact that we are women that increases the likelihood of bisexuality.

DJRnold
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21 Jul 2008, 11:24 am

I wonder if anyone is offended that you said "gayness" instead of "homosexuality"...

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21 Jul 2008, 1:25 pm

Diamonddavej wrote:

What about the phenomenon of celibate straight and asexual Aspies who are mistaken for gay?

It used to happen to me, because I used to be asexual I was assumed to be gay. I was propositioned by gay men and accused of being gay by women.

I was happy being asexual during most of my 20s, but I gradually felt more odd and lonely. I found the transition from asexuality and sexuality very hard, it was confusing and very stressful for me but ultimately well worth the change. Being casual friends only, requires a simpler level of social skills then the social & emotional skills seen in a sexual relationship. I had to develop and work on my social skills before I could date and have a girlfriend.

I recall saying this to a friend ~8 years ago, which I still remember verbatim -

"Why does there have to be male and female? What can't there just be people who are friends?"

You know, I can relate to a ton of this. Tho I didn't have it in me to just say "f-ck off" to anyone who thought/said I was gay, I instead caved into pressures, turning my back on myself. I don't feel particularly bad about this these days, oh f-ing well... My dad and uncle even went so far as to "trick" me into "proving" I was gay, quite a set up, and I recognized it for what it was as soon as I saw it. Slimy f-ing bastards, I can't begin to express my disgust at these actions. I idolized my father. Losing respect for more and more people as the days go by, this sh-t is starting to get to me...

:huh:

I had a similar thought, tho unsaid-"why does it matter if I'm gay, straight? Why does not screwing equal homosexuality?"

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Spacedoubt
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21 Jul 2008, 1:26 pm

2ukenkerl wrote:

n4mwd wrote:

Aspinator wrote:

I find this puzzling. ... Although I have a hetrosexual orientation I have been "approached" by gay people. ...

No there is no link. The reality is that a lot of aspies are actually asexual and not heterosexual. Before I knew that a person could have asexuality as an orientation, I used to identify myself as being straight because I knew I wasn't gay and I didn't know there was a third alternative.

Here is why you are being approached by gays. Gays have this sense they call "gaydar". Basically, they look at your eyes when a cute girl passes you. If you make eye contact with her, then they assume you are straight and do not attempt t contact you. If you don't make eye contact, then they assume you are gay. The problem is that gaydar fails when you add in asexuality because its a false trigger.

So if you are truly heterosexual, you should be thinking about having sex with women every 9 seconds or so. If not, and if you are an aspie, then you have a really good chance of being asexual.

So you are saying that nearly every single AS person is GAY, simply because they don't think about sex with a woman every 9 seconds!?!?!? HEY, I guess that means almost no AS person is gay either, because they don't dream about sex with a man every 9 seconds either.

HEY, my body is on AUTOPILOT! If I see a flash of a woman that is too pretty and/or maybe a little too naked, I get proof that I am just NOT gay. EVEN if I don't think about it! Funny, that NEVER happens with a similar flash of a man.

As for looking in the eyes? FUNNY, I often avoid them. Then again, many women APPRECIATE guys that look them in the eyes, because MOST STRAIGHT GUYS DON'T! And I try to hide my desire, etc... By the time the average woman sees me, I may have looked her over 3 times. It AGAIN is almost automatic.

As for AS and homosexuality being the same? Homosexuals sometimes ACT autistic, often have weird ways to move, think, etc... They like to think that, as a group, they are smart and articulate. Frankly, I doubt that. I have seen MANY that are quite the opposite.

On one of the planes, coming back, one man let his wrists flop almost as if he was dead, moved in a slightly odd way, and his voice had an almost gay sound to it. I have no doubt he was gay. I, by contrast, couldn't move my wrists like that if I tried, wouldn't try, DON'T move in such a way and, though I sound young, certainly never had such affectations. WHO KNOWS about connections. BUT, to say they are THAT closely related, I DOUBT IT!

I WILL say one thing. Many homosexuals DO appear to lack any sort of fashion, etc... They have the WIERDEST ideas and, frankly, when was the last time you saw them IN PUBLIC.

If you doubt the veracity of my post, PLEASE see the doodah parade! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doo_Dah_Parade

Whoa, calm down. You're protesting too much. Nobody's questioning your personal sexual orientation here.

Your question about when was the last time you saw a gay person in public makes me laugh. The answer? Probably the last time you left the house! Or the super- macho stud not-gay-at-all cabin that you live in.

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area where there are gay neighborhoods and holidays and parades. They're very visible. However, I know that there are gay people that are more discrete. They're everywhere! Bwahahahahaha.

When was the last time you saw one? Hilarious!

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21 Jul 2008, 1:31 pm

mechanima wrote:

Gay people are certainly not all Aspies, and Aspies are certainly not all gay, in fact there may be no real relationship whatsoever between the two states of being.

I suspect the reality is that that, in general, like gender identity, gender orientation (whether bi, gay or str8) is more specific and "hard wired" in NTs than in Aspies.
Just a thought.

M

That makes a lot of sense to me.

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21 Jul 2008, 1:39 pm

Fnord wrote:

kleodimus wrote:

this might just be my opinion and feel free to prove me wrong but alot of gays and aspies alike have probably had bad childhoods or rough backgrounds...any views on this possibility

It's one of those "Chicken-Or-Egg" things. Are the people gay or do they have an ASD because of mistreatment, or were they mistreated because of being gay or having an ASD?

No, this is not a chicken or the egg thing. We know which came first.

If a lot of gays and lesbians had rough childhoods and a lot of aspies did too, the only connection I can make there is that perhaps many of them were treated badly because their parents didn't understand them or accept them. End of story. People are born gay. People are born aspie.

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21 Jul 2008, 1:42 pm

2ukenkerl wrote:

Well, this is hard to explain, and will probably come out wrong, but it IS an apparently common feeling.

To me, homosexual men just seem WRONG! BAD, etc.... I don't like the idea AT ALL. Even THEY admit that they are received that way.

Homosexual WOMEN in and of themselves don't seem so wrong. Of course, those that seem to almost want to be men, even in appearance, seem just as wrong as the men. There are a lot of comedies, etc... that illustrate it. Even SEINFELD illustrated it.

So, like many other things, women just seem to be accepted farther away from the usual norms. They can say what they want, but whether they are the farmers daughter, dressed up and working almost like a man, but still definitely feminine, or dressed up frilly and acting very much like little girls, they are still accepted in the same way.

Of course, all the statements I have made here in this area are not affected by how they might be received. If I couldn't tell the truth, I simply wouldn't post. I can't speak for the other males, but I am sure they are telling the truth also.

I'm not jumping to defend or offend, here, however, I think someone may have jumped too quick in thinking this was a posting of homophobic remarks. I understand what he's saying. To him it doesn't seem right or okay. He doesn't think that way. He's also pointing out that society definitely looks at homosexual men differently than homosexual women. It's not as okay to be a gay man as it is to be a gay woman. Of course, we have to also point out here, that this could stem from living in a somewhat male dominated society. Guys often fantasize about two women but rarely two men. As Ron White points out "we are all gay, it's just to what extent we carry out those feelings." Women, can in some cases, get away with being more promiscuous in their sexual preferences because society whether overtly or not, says that it is okay and even erotic. If two women hook up in college it's called experimenting, if two men were to do this, they are branded negatively for life. It's just society and their demented ideas of what is normal.

2ukenkurl did not do a great job of expressing this, but the general idea was there. Now, we're both prolly banned for life!

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21 Jul 2008, 1:45 pm

Spacedoubt wrote:

I agree. We are born wired the way we are wired. It has little to do with what comes afterward, although I'm sure that it does serve to justify how we are wired at some point to some extent. I'm saying that sometimes children who are abused will use this as rationalization for their sexual orientation. Happens. Doesn't mean they weren't born this way, but does stress the fundamental law that we are all human and we have the integral need to explain ourselves to others when we realise that we do not conform to societal norms and practices.

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21 Jul 2008, 1:51 pm

n4mwd wrote:

rdos wrote:

Interesting. That does seem to go in the same direction as my genealogy research seems to show.

Genealogy would show traits like heredity. Autism is clearly a hereditary syndrome. Sexual orientations, OTOH, defy that logic. There is far more research into homosexuality than with asexuality, so I'm going to refer to some of that. In identical twin studies, there are more than a few cases where identical twins result in one child gay and the other straight. So its not 100% genetic. The best research I have seen suggests that it is hormones in-utero that seem to be responsible. I have seen claims that scientists have successfully been able to make rats gay by injecting hormones in-utero.

Getting back to asexuality, yes its a real orientation.

What asexuality is NOT:
1. A choice like celibacy.
-- Priests choose to avoid sex, they are celibate, not asexual.

2. Bad luck.
-- I'm asexual and when I was younger, I had lots of girlfriends, but no desire for sex. I considered them friends. They wanted more and that usually caused problems.

3. The result of sexual abuse as a child.
-- I was not sexually abused. I have worked with such children as a nurse and a good many of them are the opposite. That is, 10 year old boys with a history of being sexually abused that are so excessively sexually aggressive to the point that other children (and animals) are not safe.

4. Excessively restrictive parents/religion.
-- People tend to do what they want to when the parents aren't around. While religion may have something to say about premarital sex, most of them do not condemn marriage.

5. Virginity.
-- Sadly, most asexuals are not virgins. Some are even married with children. Like I said before, people grew up thinking that if you weren't gay, then you must be straight. Then they assumed that lifestyle. I personally know an asexual woman who was married with two sons. She told me that she became an alcoholic because she had to get drunk in order to tolerate her husband having sex with her. To put yourself in her position, as a straight guy, think of how you would feel if you were forced to have sex with another man.

6. Rape.
-- While I have personally had an unfortunate experience with an overly aggressive female once, I was asexual long before that, I just didn't know it at the time. I even had other serious relationships with women since then and before I knew I was asexual.

Now here is the kicker. Two years ago, I didn't know anything about asexuality or aspergers. I met a lovely autistic girl who educated me. She claimed to be a LFA, but she had been through enough therapy that she was a very high functioning LFA. At her insistence, I got diagnosed with AS and then promptly rejected that diagnosis. Of course I eventually accepted it, but not at first.

So to put it bluntly, asexuality breaks a lot of pre-conceived notions about what sexual orientations are. A sexual orientation is about who you want sex with and not who you are attracted to.

You know what? I'm asexual. When I was married or involved with men I would just have sex to get them to stop bothering me. It was so uncomfortable for me that I would often mentally go somewhere else.

Now I'm a single mom and people pressure me to find a new dad for my kids. I have no desire to. I like to be alone.

I didn't know that anyone else felt this way until one day, on TV, I saw people talking about it. There's even a website. Asexuality

I do get hit on by lesbians. People tell me that it's because I don't wear make-up, I wear pants, and the silliest one, that I wear my ponytail at the nape of my neck. Well, I am not sacrificing comfort just to look straight.

Some of the most interesting people that I know are lesbians, so I'm not very motivated to change.

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21 Jul 2008, 2:17 pm

alex wrote:

2ukenkerl,
Please refrain from making homophobic offtopic comments.

Just to set things straight(no pun intended. SERIOUSLY!), I HATE the idea of the term "homophobic". Phobic refers to phobia or fear, and my feelings aren't out of fear. I am posting this so late simply because someone asked me if I was banned(I haven't been yet, as you know), or was laying low(which I ALSO wasn't doing). I am surprised that you would use the term "homophobic" in that context.

Frankly, it was something off the cuff to illustrate how many appear to feel. I'm sure people like Spacecase heard far worse, and Spacecase seems fine. I LIKE most of her posts! She gets some people thinking, even with her silly surveys!(That last statement is/was NOT meant to be offensive.) I speak of Spacecase here ONLY because she is the only good example of a person I know to be homosexual here at the moment.

ALSO, it seems like there ARE a lot of straight people here, even though the percentage of homosexuals here may be higher than in the population as a whole.

Still, despite what you think, I don't hate everyone. I have tried to be supportive of many, and I think those I have been against mostly deserved it. And although I didn't like much of what Daniel said earlier, I never hated him either. I apologize if it seemed that way. In any event, I agree with most of what he has said lately! One person accused me of claiming that I was perfect, and had no AS related problems. Where she got that from, I may never know. The fact is that I HAVE admitted many. I have NO ill will towards you, Spacecase, or myriads of others on this forum. I apologize if it seems that way at times. That IS one of the failings I have attributed to AS. This apology IS contrite, none the less! Hopefully, all offended will accept it.

ALSO, to the best of my knowledge, Alex never threatened to ban me. I hope he never threatens to ban anyone like me, given the audience this forum targets. This post was triggered by a casual text message from another member that I consider to be a friend.

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21 Jul 2008, 2:40 pm

I stayed away from this topic on purpose for a while just to see where it would go even though I knew much of what would be said. 2ukenkerl, I understand why Alex posted what he did. While you've broken down the word homophobia to it's root latin parts, the fact is that homophobia is the accepted term for words or actions that denote a dislike or disagreement for someone who is gay. I understood your comments for what they were but there was an element of homophobia to what you posted.

Your comments point out one of the strangest phenomenons when it comes to homosexuality and people's views on it. Straight men who find two men together repugnant never really seem to have a problem with two women together. Do I know why? Not really, but I can surmise that the thought of two men together in some way offends or makes them nervous. Two women together is completely not threatening to straight men. How much straight male porn out there is girl on girl action? Even in totally straight porn, there is usually at least one girl on girl scene.

Again, I'm gay and I don't find your comments necessarily offensive though I don't agree with your point of view. You didn't give any facts for why you think it's wrong or bad and I'd be interested to know why you feel that way. Opinions are everyone's right but we all need to be conscious of how others might take our statements. We all know that we don't always come across the way we mean to so I guess that's the lesson here.

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21 Jul 2008, 4:11 pm

I have only just barely skimmed this thread...I just felt like mentioning that I have a very good very AS-ish friend who, while not gay...(As in, I know for a fact that he likes girls)...but has the more feminine finger digit ratio and also is slightly effeminate....and kinda sorta likes cross dressing a wee bit...(all the while being attracted to girls...in an R Crumb sort of way...if you get my drift...)..though he has spent many years celibate due to extreme shyness...
Provided that he would indeed qualify as a diagnosable aspie....and he is as close as anyone I know....fits many of the criteria....
I wonder where he would fit into the big picture.

I also know a bonified diagnosed aspie who is indeed a transexual....I have seen him before and after he made the full transition..now i am pretty sure he dresses as a woman full-time now...

I just thought I would cite those folks as examples...and now I will go back and read the thread to determine how relevant or irrelivant this post has been.

thank you.

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21 Jul 2008, 5:42 pm

sonny1471 wrote:

I stayed away from this topic on purpose for a while just to see where it would go even though I knew much of what would be said.

Yeah, nothing new can really be said!

sonny1471 wrote:

2ukenkerl, I understand why Alex posted what he did.

I do ALSO! I originally simply didn't say anything in return. The text I got today led me to this AGAIN.

sonny1471 wrote:

While you've broken down the word homophobia to it's root latin parts, the fact is that homophobia is the accepted term for words or actions that denote a dislike or disagreement for someone who is gay.

Well, I simply don't like people co-opting the term! Want to take a wild guess WHY they use that term?!?!?!? HERE'S A HINT! THEY use the meaning I gave to attack detractors. They speak of FEAR and nervousness, etc...

While we are at it, why "gay"? A friend of mine once called them "SADs", not to be confused with a lack of joy, or Seasonal Affective Disorder.

sonny1471 wrote:

I understood your comments for what they were but there was an element of homophobia to what you posted.

Call it what you will. It doesn't even mean what you imply in normal discourse, let alone the meaning obviously implied and used openly when attacking.

sonny1471 wrote:

Your comments point out one of the strangest phenomenons when it comes to homosexuality and people's views on it. Straight men who find two men together repugnant never really seem to have a problem with two women together. Do I know why? Not really, but I can surmise that the thought of two men together in some way offends or makes them nervous. Two women together is completely not threatening to straight men. How much straight male porn out there is girl on girl action? Even in totally straight porn, there is usually at least one girl on girl scene.

I don't pretend to understand it either. I DO know that two men DON'T make me nervous. Logically, and regarding sexual options, I wish every female was STRAIGHT! HECK, I LIKE the idea of them liking men EVEN if that doesn't happen to be me. So I can tell you what it is NOT, even if I can't tell you what it is.

I guess I should be happy. The world is WAY too overpopulated as it is.

sonny1471 wrote:

Again, I'm gay and I don't find your comments necessarily offensive

OK, that's good.

sonny1471 wrote:

though I don't agree with your point of view.

OK, that is expected.

sonny1471 wrote:

You didn't give any facts for why you think it's wrong or bad and I'd be interested to know why you feel that way. Opinions are everyone's right but we all need to be conscious of how others might take our statements. We all know that we don't always come across the way we mean to so I guess that's the lesson here.

HECK, I once saw a show about the homosexual lifestyle. I watched it simply because I was curious. HEY, don't try to make anything about that, I have watched shows about all sorts of creatures, etc... And this was just the same curiosity I had of animals like platypuses, etc.... As I recall, it was after a show about sexual deviations and curiousities caused by maternal use of DES.(Again, no special reason.) THEY were actually trying to CONVERT people! Yeah, I know, you say "Homosexuals don't do that.". Well, apparently, some DO. I don't recall a single reason outside of the idea of understanding one another better.

BTW I was once accused of listening to Rush limbaugh too much!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_limbaugh

I said that I did NOT agree with everything Rush Limbaugh said, and in other things he echoed MY opinions. Opinions I had LONG before he was in the area, or I knew of him. In fact, I had those opinions before he even STARTED his show. BUT, and GET THIS!! !! !! I listened to Bill Press FAR more!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Press

And Bill Press is FAR more left than Rush limbaugh could ever hope to be to the right.

My point is simply that you can't tell where I stand by looking at what I watch or listen to.

As for telling you anything I see as wrong about being Homosexual, this isn't the place anyway. I have said too much already.

To get back on track, as I stated in the last post, it appears that there ARE a lot of homosexuals here. I doubt there is a real link between AS and Homosexuality though. Some here would rather live a lonely celibate life than resort to that. Though straight people might consider them homosexuals because of it, they aren't. That is a dumb idea anyway, as some homosexuals marry the opposite sex to have kids or appear straight.

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21 Jul 2008, 6:19 pm

I thought my friend (mentioned above) was gay for the first year of knowing him :wink: ..even though he isn't....i am pretty sure.....

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21 Jul 2008, 6:43 pm

The thing about having a "gay gene" has never been proven. I am not quite ready to believe that sexual orientation is cast in concrete. I think there are some people who are born gay as well as some people who might choose to be gay because that is what they are more comfortable with.

As far as I am concerned, it would not make any difference to me whether someone was born gay or decided to switch his/her sexual orientation to being gay. You should have the right to make decisions about your life as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others.

But I have encountered NTs who thought I was gay simply because of how my character was as an Aspie. I am not aware of any connection between Asperger's Syndrome and being gay or lesbian. But I am sure there are NT's who have gotten that impression if the difficulties that an Aspie encounters in finding a person of the opposite sex are misinterpreted as being gay.

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