Question about AS "bad" behaviour

Post Reply New Topic

Hi,
I'm the NT mother of an AS 8 yr old boy. He has been having some issues at school lately with meltdowns and being defiant of teachers. I am interested in AS perspectives on to what extent behaviour is "bad" or just "autistic", and how much an AS child should be held accountable for their behaviour. How can you tell whether a child is being naughty or just reacting to issues in their environment? Also, am I right in saying that even if an AS child is being naughty, they still need to be disciplined differently than an NT child? (ie. normal AS allowances made, like giving them time to calm down, before giving consequences etc.). Any insights would be extremely helpful. Thanks.

Hello;

I've no expertise here, just recalling what it was like to be at school (some time ago now);

I'm not sure what he does that is "defiant", but I used to have a lot of conflicts with adults. I tried to talk to them as people who supposedly wanted to solve the problems they presented. It never occurred to me (until late in my schooldays) that they thought they could be more "right" about anything just by being teachers - if what they said seemed odd, I'd question it. I think this follows naturally from the AS concern with how things work mechanically or structurally; NT's are more likely to accept stuff on someone's say so, without examining it so closely.

(Come to think of it, this applies to my relationship with my parents too, though that is very good these days.)

A sort of conflict that I especially had later on (extending into workplace...) is about "self-management". For me to coordinate tasks, I have often needed to work from notes and diagrams that I write, and frequently rewrite, or to have some other sort of cueing object that I can carry with me. This can apply even to quite routine tasks. Teachers might think they know better how a student thinks than he does, and try to make him do things "normally", without his accustomed routines. All I found this achieved was to interfere with what little I was able to do, without putting anything better in its place. Of course, the resulting conflict was blamed on me.

Anyway, that's just what occurred to me, having thought back over my experience. Basically I'm saying that he may be "defiant" because he is doing his best with these people he doesn't understand.

If there is an AS diagnosis, hopefully the teachers should be able to recognise some of this, but I don't know if they always do. Is there someone who can advise professionally where you are?

all the best,

Timp.

That sort of thing happened to me when I was in school. The teachers always made it worse by trying to treat me as an NT child. I wasn't misbehaving; I was simply in an alien environment, and unable to cope. I'd assume your son is much the same - not acting out or anything, but simply pushed in the wrong direction.
Any attempts to discipline him as an NT will only make things worse.

Thanks for the posts - it is great to be able to see an AS perspective, as it's so difficult to get inside my son's head, so it helps to read the experiences of others.

I agree with this, however I'd like to know how you discipline him in the school environment as an AS?

Unless you remove him from the environment; you really can't. Any differences in his treatment by teachers or others would label him as being even more different than the other students - not something I'd recommend.
When I was that age, the feeling that I was in the wrong situation, that the world, other people were nothing like me made me react to the slightest push in those environments. But; the idea that others had was that I was always the problem, was that I was the one who needed to make more effort to fit in. Perhaps you could try telling your son that, in his own way, he's better than the others, his way is the right way, and just to pretend that others know what they're doing?
Basic psychology - if the world is presented as foolish, instead of hostile, his perspective on it may change, and so may his reactions. Of course; this is only one possibility. I've never met you nor your son - different personalities react in different ways. But, still, this is something I would suggest.

annie2-

I'm also an NT mother of an AS son. Back before he was diagnosed, I had a "care and feeding" conversation with my son's teachers at the beginning of the school year. One teacher understood, and the other teacher decided, after a couple of months, that she was going to "show him who was the boss!" Disaster! The basics were that my son would not do things just because he was told to - they had to make sense, and if they didn't make intuitive sense (to him), he needed an explanation that made sense (to him); power struggles needed to be avoided at all costs - while he might not win, the teacher never would. What appears to be defiance, in a child with AS, generally is not. He is probably not being "naughty." He doesn't know enough about the social expectations and norms to do those things in an NT way. His "defiance" (and don't let the school call it that!) is his response to confusion about expectations - he might know what is expected, but he doesn't know why, and if he doesn't know why, or if it doesn't make sense to him, he can't figure out why he is supposed to do it. The teacher saying so (to him) may simply not be reason enough. It is NOT defiance or naughtiness. Depending on what the behavior is, it could be a response to overstimulation from the environment (including irritation from peers), confusion about what is going on, even unawareness about what he is supposed to be doing! Sometimes, he will get lots of information about what he is NOT supposed to do, but little or no information about what TO do. In that case, he doesn't know what to do, and will settle on the familiar - what he knows how to do.

When the school describes him as defiant, remind them that that terminology ascribes intent to him, and they don't know what his intent is. Ask them to describe behavior, rather than try to ascribe intent. Sometimes, having a Functional Behavioral Analysis done can be useful (the school district should do this), in order to figure out what triggers certain behavior, and what might be reinforcing it. The teacher probably cannot tell what is triggering the behavior, but a trained specialist should be able to figure it out. Then it can be worked on using an appropriate plan.

I would get defiant whenever I thought I was being treated unfairly, get stubborn and do defiant things without really understanding why it was so subconscious and it wasn't like I was even thinking about it!

Maybe it's this way for all kids? I think mine was more a reaction to what I percieved as biased treatment against me. I thought they were all against me and I would never break even because "they" would never let me break even. Used to drive me crazy.

It could be due to overload too. My overload behaviour was more emotional though, crying, yelling. I tend to obsess more and lecture a lot when experiencing the minimal effects of being "overloaded".

Try to find out what's going on and address causes like overload and reactions to frustration...percieving that we are different and people are treating us differently because they percieve us as different.

This is difficult. My son, too, is the same age and we've had our share of issues. A Functional Behavior Assessment will usually identify some triggers in the environment (although it was mostly ineffective with my son), but you never know. I think it's more the procedures the team likes to follow. For instance, a child can not be recommnded to be placed out of district unless certain procedures have been put into place. FBA is one of them.

I'm cynical. Sorry.

If my son feels that he is being controlled, he will protest, become defiant, shut down, etc.

He needs to be given some opportunities to control his environment. That's how it works with my son. He also gets breaks where he can spend time on computer or do some activity related to his special interests.

If my son knows someone does not understand him, is unfair, or very controlling, he intuits this quickly and will start acting out. This is important. I've had to nit pick, dig at the particulars of a situation in order to identify why my son might have acted negatively. I've taken it to the extreme in order to prevent incident from happening again or to improve the environment for him. It is tricky business. Some might think I go overboard with an issue, but I know my son. If he's acting out (which he rarely does at home) then it's because the environment is putting too much pressure on him, or expecatations are not aligned with his abilities at that moment, or someone is trying to control him. Or, he's not being given an opportunity to move forward. He doesn't like to dwell on a negative that happened the day before (team loves to revisit in order to avoid a reoccurence), but my son will shut down. I think because he used to do this himself, but he's trained himself how to move forward.

You wouldn't believe what is missed in one moment when you start to probe. The day is busy. There are many kids. It could be one negative experience, one unsupportive aide that is setting him off, or one unkind student. You've got to get in there and do some detective work.

Mainstream ed. is brutal. My son would do best in an alternative environment, but it's not possible right now.

Best,
equinn

I was always amazed at how my son's behavior changed from year to year...depending on the teacher and other children he was around. Environment does make a big difference. However, I always made him take responsiblilty for his actions and never asked for special punishment.

I was hyperactive as a child and also reacted to bad situations. I was punished a lot for my behaviour, but I don't think that it was 100% "bad behaviour".
My Mother changed my diet at age 5 and removed flavourings, colourings, preservatives, E-numbers etc from what I ate and my behaviour improved, albeit slowly.
Sorry I'm not being very helpful. I can't seem to string words together properly at the moment.
Have you considered changing his diet?

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. It has given me a lot to think about. We do have professionals helping out, which is good - always hard to pick exactly what the triggers are as there are so many "maybe"s. I will keep working at it from my end of things, and hope that things eventually improve.

I cant give you too much specific information about what triggers your son's problems because I don't know much about your son or his situation. However, I might be able to give you some useful advice.

As others have said, it could be caused by his lack of social hierarchy understanding. This is what caused most of my 'defiant' behavior. From my perspective (and that of most autistic people), all people are equal. That means he treats his teachers, parents, classmates, and everybody as equals. You and his teachers constantly tell him not to fall into peer pressure, and think for himself. Yet your teachers want him to do whatever they say without questioning it. To him this is ridiculous because he considers his teachers as peers, so he is being told to do whatever they say, and at the same time think for himself. This will often times cause him to become confused when he is given instructions that don't make any sense. He is trying to think for himself and not do something just because he is told to, yet it if he questions why the teacher asked him to do something he is scolded for talking back. When you feel like your stuck in an impossible situation, its normal to become stressed out, autistic or not.

The solution is simple. You must tell your son that if he is confused by the teacher/adult, he should ask for clarification. If he doesnt know what to do, or doesnt understand why he should do it, then he should ask. Secondly, the teacher, or person he is with should answer these questions with reasons. 'I say so, and I am the teacher/parent/adult' is NOT a reason. 'You can't go out and play in the rain because it will probably make you sick' is a good reason. Once your son has built up some trust, he may be more willing to follow the person's directions without knowing their reasoning. But that is only after the person has proven themselves trustworthy by having answers to previous questions.


Your second possible cause may be sensory overload. If you get any 8 year old, hype him up on sugar, and put him in a room with screaming classmates, loud sounds, and confusing instructions, then they wont be able to respond well. Your son might be in that situation, its just that he has the problem more then other children due to his increased senses. I am not saying he has too much sugar in his system, but going with a muffin for lunch instead of a sugary snack certainly wont hurt. And if he has auditory processing difficulties (like me), he will have a problem with all the noise. Loud classmates, humming fans, florescent buzzing lights, etc., are very distracting. Also, listening to somebody may be simple to you, but to people like me it can be difficult. I dont think in words, so whenever I hear words, I have to translate them into my thoughts before I can understand them. When a person talks too fast, or tries to convey too much information without transitional words like 'therefore' 'because' 'so then', it wont process well. I rely on these transitional words to help turn the sentences into thoughts. When a person talks too fast and doesnt transition well, it is nearly impossible for me to understand them. If I am asked to listen to a person when they talk fast, and jump from topic to topic, all while the people behind me are having a conversation, I wont understand a single thing the person said. And I have had 2 decades of practice, if I cant do it, then how do you expect an 8 year old to do it?

There is several solutions here.

1. Move your child away from distracting noises. Put him in the corner with other quiet children, and away from things like buzzing fans, lights, and children who make a lot of noise.

2. Same as before, tell him to ask questions when he doesnt understand the teacher. Asking the teacher to repeat themselves loudly and clearly may take some time, but it will be less then the time spent recovering from a meltdown in class.

3. Let your son go off in the corner, and read a book by himself during work time. If he needs to take the time to relax and calm down instead of doing math problems, then thats his choice, he can wait to do the math problems at home. Dont force him to keep going when he is overloaded, and just needs time out to calm down.


His problem may also be caused by life not being fair. Examples of this are being made fun of by classmates (and sometimes teachers). Sometimes he will be forced to turn in something that he isnt finished with, which to me is worse then turning in nothing. And of course there is always unforeseen events like the cafeteria being out of his favorite snack, recess canceled due to rain, etc. It is impossible to remove all of these problems because in reality, life is not fair. You cant plan for every situation, and even if you could, your not doing your son any favors by avoiding these situations. He is going to have to learn how to deal with unexpected, and unfair situations if he is going to survive on his own.

So, perhaps the most important advice I can give, is to teach your son to remain calm, and think carefully before acting. Tell him that its perfectly OK to stop, and think about what he needs to do next. Explain to him that life isnt always fair, there are plenty of crazy selfish people out there. Its up to him to rise above the pettiness of this world, and take control by remaining calm. If he feels like he is becoming overwhelmed, he should stop and calm down. Having a focus, such as counting to 10, or saying a mantra is a good way to remain calm when things are going bad. Your son will not always be successful at remaining calm, but the more you encourage him to do so, the better life will be for him. A reward system for remaining calm is a good thing. If he has a good day and remains calm, he gets some ice cream or other desert after dinner. If he became upset and emotional over something trivial, then he doesnt get ice cream. This wont fix all your problems immediately. Even after a lifetime of learning to control my emotions I still have problems at times. But learning to remain calm and relaxed, even if only partially successful is better then nothing at all.

its really hard to give advises because everyone is difrent trackkers have some good reasoning

When i was younger I used to get in trouble for being 'lippy' and stubborn. A lot of the time if I believed I was right, nothing would change that, and so If i got in trouble for something I didn't do, I'd go out of my way to defend myself no matter how minor the accusation was, in fact I'm still like that now. I think the lippy thing was partly due to not understanding the limits, but also because I would get frustrated easily, so to avoid being violent I'd react verbally.

My 8 year old son with AS just completed 2nd grade in a grade 1-2 multi-age classroom. He had a great teacher, who understood him very well. But toward the end of this year, we had a lot of trouble with him refusing to do work, and other issues. We had to work together to get him to realize that he needed to do this work. If he didn't finish at school, she would send it home and I've have him work on it before he could play with his transformers, or watch TV. The message that it was important to his whole life, not just school, helped.

I also stressed to him that he needed to do this work to move to 3rd grade. That children can't go to 3rd grade unless the teacher can check off that he did this work - not just that he KNEW enough to go, but that he demonstrated it and the teacher could check off.

Usually, his worst meltdowns came when he wasn't feeling 100%, sometimes he'd end up with an ear infection after a week of meltdowns. Bedwetting occurs during his stressful times, too... The physical link is quite amazing to me, I'm never sure if it's the physical causing the upsets, or the upsets and stress causing the physical. I do know that a lot of times, I just have to break the cycle for him, give him a big hug, a calm evening, and a good night sleep. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, that he has SOME reason that we just don't understand, and listening carefully, seems to be a good plan.

HE has a "survival guide" that has social stories that Ms G, his special ed teacher, has written for him (and with him.) When he starts to have a problem, his classroom teacher asks him to pull out his survival guide and read the appropriate story. The important thing is to catch the meltdown/defiance EARLY, before it has escalated. I have copies of a lot of them, here is one on doing math...

Math

Sometimes when I have math work to do, I have to remember that there are choices other than what is written in my math book/paper.

If my math book/paper says that I must record my answer in a math journal and my teacher tells me to record my answer on the paper, I have to remember that I have choices.

The best choice is to talk with my teacher first. Sometimes we will compromise. In a compromise, sometimes I will get to choose the best way for me to record my answer AND sometimes my teacher will choose the best way for me to record my answer.

Either way, if I make the choice or my teacher makes the choice, I will remember to have appropriate behavior. Appropriate behavior means that I will continue working and will complete my work like my classmates. My reward will be good work and participation in fun activities with my classmates.

If I am feeling angry because the teacher made a choice I did not like, I can ask to have a 5 minute break in a quiet spot in my classroom. If this does not help me to stay calm I can ask to go to Ms. G’s room for a break.

If I am feeling angry or frustrated, I cannot choose to lie down on the floor or refuse to do my work. If I make this choice I will lose some of my recess time. Ms. G will be called to help me make a better choice.

When I make good choices both Ms B and Ms. G are proud of me.

Tracker - the points you raise are very helpful. Thanks for that social story on Maths - we have done some social stories, but none on processes/behaviour/consequences, so I might copy this one and adapt. Cheers everyone.