Critical thinking

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OVR (Occupational-Vocational Rehab) sent me to a Career/Vocational assessment center this week. Along with all the "interest inventory" and aptitude/achievements tests this place gave me, I also took a Watson-Glaser Critical thinking test. Here are the purported features and benefits of this test:


http://www.talentlens.com/en/watson/features.php



I scored in the 97th percentile on this test. The examiner said my score was the highest he has ever seen. In contrast, I did very poorly (as usual) on the math and applied math sections of one the achievement tests. I did not receive my scores on this test yet (i'm assuming i'll receive them after my OVR counselor gets the results from this assessment center and calls me in for an appointment), but I know I did poorly. I didn't even complete all the questions in the alloted time, but the proctor gave me extra time since I do have a documented learning disability which manifests (in the academic milieu at least) as difficulty with higher math. I believe I did well on the reading comp and language sections of this test though.


All this considered.....i'm wondering what careers and fields of study would be ideal for me. My score on this critical thinking test is similar to my Verbal IQ scores, which are usually in the 90-something %-centile. On the other hand, math is and always has been a substantial hindrance for me. I would very much like to get better at math, if for no other reason than my own self-edification. Everytime I try to do math more advanced than basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, I feel incredibly stupid. This feeling has been a source of inexpressible torment since I was a young child. I don't even remember how to multiply and divide fractions...that's how bad I am at math. In any case....if for whatever reason math will always remain a weakness for me...i'd like to know what careers/college majors would tap into my supposedly and comparatively good critical thinking skills.


One thing i've noticed when it comes to math is that once I understand the rules and symbols involved in a given problem (this even applies to Algebra), it seems very easy. That is to say....I AM capable of COMPREHENDING math (at least up to algebra....i've never even tried to take a math class beyond introductory algebra), but I never REMEMBER the rules/symbols/procedures unless i'm using math (like multiplying/dividing fractions, decimals, algebra, etc....) on a regular basis. Thus...the sort of math in question seems to be the quintessential "use it or lose it" skill for me.

I wonder if any of this has to do with some sort of deficit in procedural memory? Or maybe it's indicative of an issue with visual memory? I doubt it has much to do with the latter, since many people with AS/NVLD seem to exhibit deficits in visual/nonverbal memory and not all of them have problems with math. Furthermore...I would think that a less-than ideal visual memory would tend to manifest itself in problems with more visual-spatial aspects of math like geometry and trig. In fact....I believe I am comparatively better at algebraic-type math as opposed to geometry. IOW....I don't think my problems with algebra, fractions, etc....have anything to do with my deficits in visual memory. According to all the neuropsych memory tests i've had.....I only have a relative deficit in visual memory. My scores on the various subtests of visual memory on the neuropsych evals are anywhere from high average to impaired. The various subtest scores on all other measures of my memory are between average and very superior.


So i'm wondering about something very specific in this case. Does anyone know if any of these standard neuropsych memory tests/subtests (like the Weschler Memory Scale for instance) measure what psychologists refer to as PROCEDURAL memory? If i'm correctly understanding what procedural memory is.....I seem to have a major problem with it. For example...I never seem to be able to sign my name the same way twice. When playing guitar, I never seem to be able to play a song the same way twice. I always make mistakes and i'm not talking about minor mistakes just about every musician makes from time to time. For example....I can practice Bob Dylan's "House of the Rising Sun" (at least I know the chords by heart) a million times, but can never get the "flow" of the finger-picking right. I think much of this has to do with my poor fine motor skills rather than a deficit in procedural memory, but I just can't be sure. Procedural memory seems to be the one aspect of memory which sort of functions on an unconscious, involuntary, or "organic" level...at least more so than any other type of memory.

I suppose this is why it seems like many musicians and dancers aren't even thinking about what they're doing. Once they've memorized the steps, routines, chords, solos, etc.....they just seem to do them without much effort and free of any intellectualization. Even though I have no interest in dance...I am always amazed by great dancers who can remember all the elaborate choreography that goes into their craft. I don't think I could ever do this, but I can't be sure since i've never tried.

My psychologist said he has noticed that I seem to intellectualize EVERYTHING. He said he notices a tremendous amount of concentration and anxiety in me even when i'm signing my name. I wonder if "performance anxiety" (which manifests even when i'm alone and playing guitar for instance) is more of a problem for me than procedural memory. I try to do everything perfectly and my fear of failing to do so is overwhelming. I get to the point where I don't want to play guitar AT ALL because I know i'm going to screw up and I can't bear that.


Anyway...i'm just looking for some insight into the aforementioned things i'm wondering about.



While you're at it...maybe someone can tell me why epiphytes are so abundant in the new world tropics and why the American Crocodile is less aggressive than either the Nile or Saltwater crocodiles of Africa and Asia/Australia respectively

Not even biologists/botantists/herpetologists seem to have an answer for these questions

I would not touch the crocodilian question till you explain me why the chimp / bonobo behavioral gulf.

More seriously - not that I am not kind of serious there -

My experience and that of some others says, if you try to find a career rationally, it wob't work. Yes, there are tests for ability and interest inventories that CLAIM to help - but I have found them pretty lame. I remember a test came out saying I would be good at [I forget]. I ask the evaluator, what does this asauy about my chances as archaeologist [my goal at the time]? Oh, well, he says, you could do that if you wanted.

A good friend of mine [pretty sure he is border Aspie] in his college days started heading for about twenty careers and 15 majors. Eventually, probably your interestas and aversions and abilities and sheer LUCK will guide you into a slot like a penny rolling down a coin sorter.

And you will look back and wonder how dis I wind up HERE?

I'm training myself to think in a more critical way. There are many times that I don't always make the wisest choices, when deciding where to eat, and ordering food.

Philologos wrote:

Ha!! !.....now that I definitely wouldn't know anything about. I hate to say it....but apes are just kinda revolting to me. Not that i'd ever hurt one or anything ofcourse... they just remind me too much of ugly and obnoxious NT's or something






The "interest inventory" tests, at least, were very lame. I mean there's only a handful of jobs i'd actually ENJOY and that would be within my area of interests/passions. So basically all I could do on the interest inventory tests is indicate which jobs/tasks i'd hate the least....lol. So according to my results on this these tests.....my interests lie in the sciences, (and I suck at math) business (long story about how that determination was made...but i'm DEFINITELY NOT interested in business-related fields and the humanities. For some reason.....music was supposedly not one of my interests and that's certainly not accurate. I also have an interest in the investigative fields (police officers, security, health/safety inspectors, etc...) and the tests got that one right. IDK....i'll sort all this out....sooner rather than later I hope. Math plays a significant role in many things i'm interested in (at least in the academic setting) so that's one of the first things I need to work out.

Hmmm....I suppose making judgements about food might require some critical thinking. It does involve making prudent judgements and those which are within one's rational self-interest. I don't always make the wisest choices when it comes to food either regardless of my supposedly excellent critical thinking abilities. This is just because food feels like a drug to me and I could easily be extremely overweight if I didn't have any self-control. I already am slightly overweight and that's largely because of the dietary choices i've made on and off all my life. I have a insatiable appetite.

Like right now for instance.....I KNOW I could eat a half of a warm blueberry pie with a big serving of vanilla ice cream.


That would be heavenly to me right about now...but I know the consequences, do the "cost/benefit" analysis and come to the conclusion that momentary self-indulgence isn't worth a few extra pounds, high LDL, an increase in my blood glucose levels, etc.....


So i'm sticking with my raw veggies (like Broccoli and Califlower.....blech!! ! ), low sodium V8, fresh salmon, tuna, skinless chicken breast, lean meats, whole grains, nuts (in moderation) and that's my diet in a nutshell right now.

As far as choosing a course of study and possible future career, I think it makes sense to focus on the things you're good at rather than worry about the skills that don't come as easily to you. There are many fields that don't require math skills at all.

Your excellent critical thinking skills would make a good lawyer, for instance, though I don't know if you want to slog through law school. There are also careers in academia, in fields like literature or philosophy. You could study anthropology, psychology, etc. You mention investigative work, and that sounds like an interesting possibility as well.

Some universities don't require that you take advanced math courses if that is not your major. That's another area that you could look into: finding the right college for you.

About procedural memory..........there is not a sub-section of the WAIS which focuses on procedural memory. However, you can get tested for apraxia (or dyspraxia...less severe) which test your ability to use tools and pantomime using tools. This requires some declarative memory, but has a huge procedural motor component. Also, you could probably ask a neurophysiologist to evaluate your procedural memory...there are tasks (rotary pursuit, serial response time task etc) that are designed to test procedural memory. I don't know how exactly that would work.....how expensive it would be, whether you would have to go somewhere special etc. but you could try

There is a lot of evidence showing that procedural memory impairment is common in (at least children) with ASD's

I was going to tell people about this later.....but I am doing my thesis on procedural/ declarative memory contributions to complex novel tool use in adults with ASD's. Each tool requires learning a different kind of motor skill. My supervisor and I are just applying for ethics approval now....so I cannot officially recruit participants. However, unofficially, if you live anywhere near the Toronto area or close enough that you could come in for a study...then you could participate in my experiment. If you are coming in from out of town we could potentially cover your expenses. I cannot tell you the hypotheses now (just in case you or anyone on this site does participate...could compromise the study), but after the study there would be full disclosure of course, and you would be told how much you rely on procedural motor vs. declarative memory when using tools compared to our other AS and control participants. Also...you would get to play with little tools made out of K-NEX. (actually..... not sure if that’s a selling point =)) It will take place sometime around Novemeber...and require two sessions a couple weeks apart. Anyways, if you think you might be interested pm me. I am hoping to post about this later on in the year anyways

Also, you can pm me if you want scientific literature on memory and AS......I can certainly send you some. Or you can ask me specific questions about memory....but my interest and knowledge is in kind of a narrow area....but I can try to give some answers.

Good luck!

* I meant to say we will have 16 novel tools made out of k-nex. Each tool requires learning a different motor skill.

Sorry...I am really exhausted right now. Have been writing for a long time...........

daydreamer84~


All this sounds QUITE interesting...I am very tired now as well, but i'll pm you about all this sometime tomorrow (Sat).



Just FYI....I live about 1500 miles south of Toronto.

Hi Horus,

okay............so you live quite far away......I am trying to imagine 1500 miles south.....are you near Texas ?... Well.....if you are interested in the study I can ask my supervisor about paying for out-of-towner expenses, but it sounds like coming here would be quite inconvenient for you. T

However...I can definitely provide you with some information about memory and AS, so do write to me when you get the chance.

Also…looking at your original post……procedural memory can be impeded by performance anxiety……so that could explain your inability to play guitar for others…..when you can play just fine on your own. However, it is possible to learn skills/habits by relying more on (a type of) declarative rather than procedural memory…if your procedural memory is in fact damaged.

btw congrats on your high score on the critical thinking assessment. =)

I just sent you a pm about all this. It really wouldn't be inconvenient for me at all so long as i'm not employed at that time or if I can manage to participate in the study and then start working when I return. My "performance anxiety" is not limited to how I play in front of others. Regardless of any neurological and/or psychological reasons for them, I make the same mistakes when i'm playing by myself. I thought I made that clear in my OP, but I guess not. I would like to know more about the skills/habits you're referring to which would allow me to compensate for deficient procedural memory via greater reliance on declarative memory.

Thanks for the congrats...but all my good results on such assessments are always tempered by my bad ones....particularily when it comes to math.

daydreamer84~


I probably should mention the fact that i've never received an official ASD diagnosis. I have taken six neuropsychological evaluation in my life and marginally speaking, I failed to meet the AS/ASD criteria on any of them according (I disagree with their assessment...but that's another story) the psychologists who administered them. I have been told (on almost all these evaluations) I exhibit the general characteristics associated with NVLD/NLD however. Since NLD is not formal mental disorder, I usually have received the LD-NOS or Mathematics Disorder Dx on Axis-I of these tests.


As you probably know....there is alot of debate as to whether AS and NLD/NVLD are really one and the same disorder or not. I personally believe they have a common etiology and the all the supposed distinctions between the two disorders comes down to little more than diagnostic hair-splitting. Anyway....I just thought i'd let you know as this would likely be relevant to any decisions you may make regarding my participation in your study.

Horus, I was very good at maths and could count and add and stuff before primary school. Then I was totally crap at maths when I turned about 9 years old.

Being a science head from a VERY young age, I decided to go to University to do my science degree.

BUT what about my s**t maths?

I worked my ARSE off before going to Uni to do algebra. There is suspicion that I have dyslexia a long with AS. Much to overcome.

But I did it and scored 98% in algebra in a pre-admittance test. Like you though, I must revisit the rules to mathematics constantly.

It is not evident in this badly written post, but writing has always been my strong point, however, I suck at spelling. Good at English comprehension, very bad at comprehension to do with written maths problems. Very good with algebra, totally suck at geometry(bad spatial awareness). Very good with chemistry and biology, very bad with physics(even though I LOVE quantum mecahnics )

Keep going. If you want to overcome deficits in maths, get yourself a good maths fundamentals book and work your way through it. The internet also has really good websites for worksheets in any given maths area.

Take care,

Mics

Most of my math problems started to manifest when we got into fractions, decimals, percentages, etc in elementary school. Again...it seems to be more a problem of remembering symbols, rules and procedures than anything else. I admit that I gave up trying very quickly. I took intro algebra twice in my freshman year and dropped it both times. After that...I merely opted for course substitutions which I was eligible for rather than seeking out tutoring, accomodations, alternate ways of learning algebra, etc....I am ok with spelling, but i'm not likely to win a spelling bee anytime soon either. My English comprehension is also quite good according to all subjective and objection assessments. My spatial awareness is very poor and I don't know if I could ever handle something like trig no matter how much effort I put forth. I have taken some biology courses and i'm ok with that for the most part. I have never taken either chemistry or physics though since both require a working knowledge of algebra at the very least. I plan on getting a math fundamentals book before I return to college in January. Even if I ultimately major in something with little or no math requirements (and few majors that require none are worth majoring in), I am bound and determined to conquer math at least up to the college algebra level. Such an achievement would do wonders for my self-perception and you can't put a price on that IMO.

Anyway...thanks for your advice and encouragement

Sometimes I wonder if I'm too good at critical thinking. I can be overly critical of myself and others. But I feel like other people could benefit from more of it!

I was good at math until my teacher wanted me to memorize integral functions. I did poorly in the class (D), but I got a B on the AP test because they let you use a reference chart!