Okay, bear with me here. This is about anorexia...

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There seems to be a strong reaction to opinions, statements, ect regarding anorexia. It seems to be a testy subject.

Okay, try to give me a fair answer here. What are the signs pointing to and the chances of anorexia being caused by a definite neurological difference. And to what degree is this difference the cause of anorexia?

Up until a few minutes ago on World of Warcraft, I was under the impression that anorexia is almost totally the result of the psychology of a person. That they have developed in such a way, influenced by the world so as to feel the need to be thin. Their vision warped to see fat where it isn't. That kind of a thing.

I'm trying to see how this is a disease.

In my "inconsiderate" opinion i think that this is just plain stupidity. To have your mindset setup in such a way where you actively are trying to starve yourself to fulfill some image of beauty just screams STUPID at me.

Have you ever known someone who isn't a clinically depressed type but they have this irrational belief that you just can't shake them of? "I'm so worthless!"
"Well you see worth is kind of a subjective thing, you are only worth as much as you see fit. Besides, why do you need worth to be happy? Why have you decided that worth is important, and THEN decided that you don't have it? Why not make up some random quality, 'Sarktheneck' for instance, and then decide it is good, and you have a lot of it instead?"
....."I'm so worthless!"

I see anorexics as being in this same kind of predicament. But i still don't see how this is a disease. We don't apply the term disease to other lifestyle choices.

Soliders going off where theyre likely to die don't get the term disease applied to them.

Well if it turns out that there is a definite pathological disorder in some people which through some convoluted series of conditions ends up making it harder for people to not see the imperfections, s**t like that, then i can understand it. Biological impulses can be VERY hard to ignore. However i was under the impression that all the minor neurochemical differences were caused BY starving yourself, and being agitated by your appearence and s**t like that, not the other way around.

If there isn't a neurochemical cause to this, then explain to me how people who are anorexic aren't just psychologically f****d up people who are deeply entrenched in their delusions and refuse to listen to sense.

And frankly i don't care if your brother has it, or your mother died from it. It doesn't change the reality of the condition. Sorry.... Lately i'm getting really really pissed off at people who have some relative who died from some condition and they try to use that as some kind of a POINT besides, "I'm really sad about it!"

Okay, i'm done venting. Please procede to tear me a new one.

Also, lemme phrase it this way.

I understand that people with anorexia are a product of the culture. That it isn't really their fault that they've garnered from living in this culture that thinness is good, and s**t like that. It isn't really their fault that theyve learned to be anorexic. But when theyre presented evidence that their lifestyle is bad, and is killing them and they REFUSE to change, i am not the least bit sad when they kill themselves.

I can even understand that changing their lifestyle can be hard, reprogramming always is, but those who hear the sense and REFUSE to listen, they're stupid, and i'm glad when they're dead.

I can see where you're coming from with this. To draw a parallel:
I used to be a smoker in my foolish youth, and when I stopped thinking I was immortal and, gosh, I might actually start to age, I quickly gave up a very stupid habit. Hell, why make the inevitable worse than it has to be?
And yet, there are millions of otherwise intelligent people who continue to smoke, well aware of the harm they are doing..are these smokers neurologically impaired too?

However, one must ask the question: are anoerexics capable of making such judgements? The very act of starving themselves will change the way they think. Have you ever felt so hungry you could faint? How was your concentration when you felt that hungry? A simplification, I know; there must be more to this than at first appears.
Also, what stops some smokers from giving up, when others have managed to overcome their addiction? Not all anoerexics die from the condition, that we know.

I believe its well known that people are often irrational "I know this is killing me but...", I feel neither glad or sad about that, it is mere fact! It doesn't make them stupid though, it just shows how complex and flawed human thought can be.

i have struggled to cope with eating difficulties (they're not severe enough to give them the epithet "disorders", as far as i am aware) for about 27 years.

i know, intellectually, that it isn't healthy for me to be at my present weight (about half a stone underweight).

i also know that not eating enough is self defeating, because your body gets used to it, and thereby requires fewer calories, due to a decrease in metabolic rate.

last night, i was very down, and i cannot (note - CAN not, not will not) eat when i'm stressed/down/emotional - it's physically impossible, literally, as i gag and eventually vomit (this is not bulimia - i have never MADE myself vomit, in any bulimic way). part of me knew i should eat, as i'd eaten little throughout the day. another, big part of me was saying, "yay! i can be thin if i don't eat!"

fortunately, last night, i spoke to a friend on the phone, and she was able to "talk me down" and so i was able to eat a little.

i still smoke, even though it's killing me, because i am terrified (literally, not just "a bit concerned") about all the weight i will put on.

i am likely to have panic attacks in restaurants, or even just choosing a sandwich, or even a coffee, if i'm out and have to eat/drink.

i've found it a bit easier, recently, as i've been exercising a lot more, and so can "allow" myself to eat a bit more.

i don't think i'm desperately trying to conform to a societal norm (that of being thin). everyone i know says i look better with more weight on me. i know myself that i have to keep on eye on my food and eating difficulties, in case they get out of hand - no-one has to present me with any evidence. i live with all this every day. sometimes, just thinking about it can send me into a massive depression.

i don't know if it's a neurological disease.

am i stupid? do you believe this is a lifestyle choice for me? will you be glad when i'm dead, nomaken?

Here is an article that may be of interest:

Anorexia nervosa in women may be caused by autism

EBEN HARRELL


SEVERE cases of anorexia may be the result of undetected autism in women, a leading expert said yesterday.

Autism, characterised by defects in communication and social interaction, also makes many anorexic patients unresponsive to traditional treatments and may be responsible for anorexia's low recovery rates, according to Professor Christopher Gillberg, of the University of Strathclyde.


Although autism is thought to be a male problem, affecting up to four times more boys than girls, the disorder has been overlooked in women because their autistic traits present themselves differently, according to Prof Gillberg. An obsession with counting calories, for instance, may be an outward sign of autism.

"Our research has shown that a small but important minority of all teenage girls with anorexia nervosa in the general population meet diagnostic criteria for autistic disorder, Asperger syndrome or atypical autism. I've seen quite a number of cases where the anorexia has become completely entrenched because people haven't understood that underlying the eating disorder is autism."

Prof Gillberg said anorexic patients with autism tended to be severe cases because traditional treatment for eating disorders proved ineffective.

For instance, family therapy - a popular psychotherapy in which family members discuss eating with the sufferer - is all but useless for autistic patients.

"If you have an autism spectrum disorder you have great difficulty even understanding basic concepts about other people's thoughts and feelings, which means anything said in a family-therapy session is likely to be misconstrued by the affected individual who will not grasp what is going on in that particular context.

"Instead they need much more concrete, one-to-one interventions."

A spokesman for the Eating Disorder Association welcomed the research and said it could help develop more effective treatments for eating disorders.

About 5 per cent of anorexic patients die from complications of the disorder and only 40 per cent make a full recovery.

Although not addressed in his studies, Prof Gillberg said autism was behind the majority of male anorexia cases. Ten per cent of the 1.1 million reported anorexia cases in the UK are in men.

"My clinical impression over the past 30 years has been that males struck by anorexia nervosa very often - perhaps even in the majority of cases - have autism spectrum disorders," he said.

Judith Gould, director of the National Autistic Society's Diagnostic Centre, agreed with the study's findings.

"We believe we are probably missing autism in girls due to the different way in which it often manifests itself in females. We would also agree that anorexia, which is predominantly diagnosed in girls, could be linked to autism in an unknown proportion of cases."

About 500,000 people in the UK - including 50,000 in Scotland - are thought to have some form of autism.

Everyone is autistic!! !

You'd swear it by the way they portray just that statement there.

Depending on how vaguely you define it...

The idea of autism leading to anorexia is depressing.

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articleren ... tid=384957

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articleren ... rtid=32312

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/pagerender ... tid=303974

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articleren ... tid=305267

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articleren ... tid=383345

Just a few.

I spent many years being anoriex. I started down the road because my father told my mother and me he was leaving because mom got fat. I eventually destroyed my health (collapsed numerous times) but I never really did understand that the lack of eating was causing the health issues. Also that would not matter anyway I desired my fathers approval over my life. At the worst I had only 4% body fat. I was created to be a large woman and at the smallest I still had a hugh chest meaning most of my weight and body fat was in my chest.

I really don't know what happens to make you not see or understand that you are killing yourself. I was never able to overcome the issue until I determined that dad was an ass and I married a guy that spent years feeding me and proving to me that I had value outside my looks. I still struggle with the concept that I have value as a person with out the "proper looks" dad advocated. The issue is that what dad said I could have never been anyway because I am just a curvy person by design and no matter how thin I was I still had a large chest and round hips.

Ok so you can think I should have been able to just overcome the issue but I could not and until someone came along that did not expect me to just "do it" it never changed.

Y

this is interesting. i don't know if i've got a fully coherent analysis here, but i *sort of* agree with both sides here, only i've got a suspicion ppl are conflating 2 (or more) separate issues here...

vetivert, i think what you describe is not what (as i understand it) is strictly defined as anorexia (altho it might come under the very broad (and imo not very helpful) label "eating disorder"). it sounds more like a (typically AS, imo) social anxiety/sensory overload issue that just happens to be manifesting itself as a thing "about" food...

i used to have lots of issues to do with eating as a child/teenager, which i think my parents thought were borderline anorexia at at least one point, but which were, looking back, clearly AS issues. as a young child i wouldn't eat a vast number of foods because i found their flavour or texture "disgusting", and would only eat very specific products (even down to particular brand names). i wouldn't eat certain food items if they were touching other types of food, and if there was more than one type of food on my plate i would always have to completely finish one thing before starting on another. if i didn't like something, i would literally starve rather than eat it, because it simply wasn't "food" to me.

also, particularly later, i had a lot of guilt/trauma issues to do with being forced to eat "communally" with my family, and was sometimes unable to eat if another person was in the room (but if i got the chance to eat alone, i would eat voraciously). i also hated other people watching me eat and found it disgusting to watch other people eat.

none of this had anything at all to do with weight, calories or "body image" (at that age i completely lacked, and still don't have much of, any kind of "body image", and have always found the idea of somehow morally evaluating either yourself or others by physical condition or appearance bizarre and incomprehensible), but it did have to do with autistic sensory peculiarities and trauma resulting from NT incomprehension of them...

(i should note that most of these problems disappeared completely by themselves pretty much as soon as i was living independently and away from my parents and didn't have to live by anyone's "rules" or expectations except my own... and i'm now almost the opposite on a lot of things (for instance, sometimes nowadays i can't be bothered to eat unless i have someone else to eat with, even despite being in physical pain with hunger, because the thought of eating alone depresses me so much))

on the other hand, i do think that *most* NT anorexia (which several people i know have been through) is a result of social and political rather than neurological causes (much as IMO most depression is)... i think that, rather than seeing people who succumb to our society's weight/appearance obsession as "stupid", i tend to feel deeply sad that they can't see out of it, and lucky that i'm not myself susceptible to it...

i see what you mean. and i did say that i haven't got anorexia - not even an eating disorder, necessarily - not as it's understood in common parlance, although i have had anorexia due to clinical depression, but that's in the general medical sense.

however, a common misconception is that anorexia is a direct result of a desire to be thin, exclusively.

it's not.

it's about control, and having some sort of power in one's own life.

it's also a form of self mutilation.

it's also about low (non existent) self esteem.

it can be (as yealc said) about trying to gain approval.

it tends to be trivialised by "the powers that be" cos it mainly affects young women, and so most of the information publicised is biased towards the view that it's about girls wanting to be thin and taking it to extremes, which, undoubtedly, is in there somewhere.

it is psychological and not social in cause.

it's neither simple nor straightforward.

i worked with a 8/9 year old who had anorexia, once. it was horrifying. luckily, she was hospitalised, before she became terminally ill.

psychological and not social? i don't see those things as mutually exclusive. in fact, the more i think about it the more sense it makes to me is that everything pschological is (also) social.

why do these (mostly) young women lack control over their lives, self esteem etc? it's not because of their own biology...

if our society didn't judge people by physical appearance, didn't devalue women in relation to men (and propagate negative stereotypes of *both* sexes in doing so), and actually *gave* young people control over their own lives, i'd be willing to bet there would be a lot less eating disorders (less depression, less self-harm in all its forms, less drug addiction, etc)...

i don't see how individual psychology can be separated from society at all...

Exactly I was also a self mutilator. The control thing is hugh it is something you own and that you control. Mine had nothing to do with my self image I did not have one I was a person created by my father and until I gained that control over my life in a healthy way I had no control.

Well, Well put Vetivert!! !!

Y

Exactly! I've known very few people with anorexia, but most of the people I know desire to be thin and watch what they eat much more than the average person. Those are two completely different things.

sorry, shiva - i should have explained myself more clearly.

i agree. but the original post was about how anorexia is just trying to be thin, and people should be able to stop being stupid when they hear it's bad for them.

what i mean by psychological causation is that merely pointing out the "stupidity" and expecting people to "pull themselves together" (anyone with depression ever heard that one before?) is futile, unsupportive and merely reinforces negative self image in the anorectic. the cause is not social, in that it's not merely the desire to be thin. it manifests as this simple behaviour, and so people assume that the cause is as simple, whereas the underlying causes are far more complex.

i agree that western society's valuing of thin-ness provides a modus operandi through which it can be expressed. and i also agree that anorexia, which can often go hand in hand with abuse (whether physical, sexual, emotional or psychological), which is a social phenomenon, by a simple definition, anyway.

if it were simply a matter of "stop being daft, and start eating", then i would agree that it was sheerly a social phenomenon, and it would be so easy just to change the acceptable face of "women have to be thin" and stop parading supermodels as examples of the epitome of beauty (yeah - dead simple ). but i bet that it wouldn't happen, and women (and some men - it's on the increase in men, by the way) would still starve themselves.

if it isn't individual psychology, then how come my friend - who is a biiiiiiig woman - has no problem about her size, while i - who am, literally, half her size - can go into a profound depression if i put on a couple of pounds?