Is anyone else sick of the anti-NT bias?

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(not talking specifically about this site, just in general)


NTs aren't inherently bad, people! Just because they don't have any experience with something does NOT make them evil or ignorant, it just means they don't *KNOW*. Instead of lumping all of them into a single category just because of a few bad apples, try telling them the truth--the vast majority of them WILL LEARN. But no one's going to learn anything if we see them as the enemy.

And you know, Aspies can be just as oppressive as anyone. We're not inherently blameless because we're all individuals.


For that matter, "neurotypical" always struck me as a horrid phrase. Nobody is "typical" because such a thing doesn't exist in individuals. Even if someone isn't autistic, there's still a wide variety of other conditions...or maybe they collect porcelain cats. That's not typical and some people would see them as crazy for it.



My point is that if you're sick of how "normals" handle the world, do something about it--starting with stopping lumping all nonautistics together as some monolithic force.

You make a strong point actually. Since joining this group I've actually thought of "Neurotypicals" differently. Still the term is appropiate as Neurologically they are typical. Also if you don't like how "normals" handle the world, there isn't really anything you can do.

I completeley and utterly agree. Even though I'm not really considered "NT", I've left this site a few times due to all the NT-bashing. It's prejudiced and totally uncalled for. All it does really is make Aspies look like they're bad people with bad reps. I mean, what is anyone accomplishing from harrassing people? The tried and true phrase applies here: If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all.

Somebody say hallelujah.

No idea where this topic emerged from. Sure i see the occasional "nt-bashing" which is expected to a slight extent, and i see other times where neurotypicals are referred to in a non offensive way, then there's the dozens of Nts who come here simply to learn about aspergers and are welcomed with arms wide open.

There's always gonna be some negativity towards Nts no matter what, mainly because alot of us have been persecuted by them since childhood, my bullies weren't aspies and im sure alot of people here had it the same way, but in the end, i believe everybody knows that one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch.

I never really bought into any of the NT-bashing. It's probably due to my NT brother who I get along with very well.

We are a community primarily made up of people that share a particular minority condition - in our particular case, the autism spectrum - that for a great many of us has resulted in some degree of perceived or genuine oppression as well as frequent mutual misunderstanding with others not part of our minority. Living every day as part of such a minority can be frustrating at times for many people. Furthermore, for some people, this community is the only place they feel that they truly belong.

As a result, it is natural to need to vent every so often, and it is not at all uncommon to direct that vent at the majority, with the audience being the (presumably) sympathetic minority. This can be quite healthy and therapeutic, and is an unavoidable part of just about any online community for minorities who are so much as teased for being what they are, no less feeling oppressed.

We in these types of communities can help those venting by having some tolerance and understanding of the motivation for the vent. Having said that, venting can easily escalate to vitriol and bashing, and can incite others to behave similarly. We should actively discourage this, by how we react when we feel that someone has crossed the line. In more serious cases, the moderators will take over, but they should not have to be dragged into every little skirmish.

Above all, show respect for others at all times, difficult as it may sometimes be. Then we can all enjoy the forum and be able to support those who need it while not driving others away.

I agree.............it strikes of such immaturity. However, I feel it highlights the need for an individual to scapegoat, to avoid having to look at themselves for very good reasons, and more often than not the reason is suffering.

Although the name of this site is a play on words 'Wrong Planet' it can lead to people (especially those who are emotionally challenged) really believing that on a human level, they are separate from the NT population...............however, I have come to like the name Wrong Planet over the time I have been on it, because that is often how I feel.

I think it is a real challenge for many of us to move beyond reacting to a world that for many of us is overwhelming.

Last edited by criss on 11 Dec 2008, 7:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

Just wondering... Who's "them"?

If you just randomly refer to "them" you'll probably sound like some delusional paranoid conspiracy theorist.

The only way that "them" makes any sense whatsoever is that you initially referred to "them" and defined "them" as NTs.

Given that referring to "them" only makes sense when the term has been defined, how else do you propose to define "them" if you don't like people to be labelled by their neurological status? NTs do often define other people, like Aspies and other people on the autistic spectrum byt their neurological status. In some ways, reflecting that, that labelling, mirroring back on "them" what they're doing to us is a good technique for challenging what they're doing.

Mirroring someone's behaviour, if you find it problematic, can be a very good way of bringing home to them the impact of what they're doing. You're right, a lot of it is just a result of ignorance, but something like, e.g. that list of NT flaws, which mirrors Aspie/Autistic 'flaws' can be an effective tool in terms of educating and opening people's eyes up to as to how their behaviour comes across to others.

Definitely agree. Billions of people cannot possibly all be alike.

These people are the world's population. If you can't get along with them or agree with them, get used to it. They're certainly not going anywhere.

And I don't agree with the venting, either. If you have a problem, it's with a particular individual or group of individuals, not billions of people. All of the people I love are NT, so I would appreciate them not being bashed, just as I would appreciate not bashing race, gender, etc.

You can say EXACTLY the same about Aspies. We're not inherently bad, we just don't have the experience that NT's have.



Now you appear to be lumping ALL Aspies in to a single category.


Are you suggesting we take action rather than merely complaining?



I think you're taking things far to literally. I doubt there is *anybody* here who really thinks all NT's are identikit replicas of each other. When people say "NT's do this", "NT's do that", it's a convenient generalisation. Specifying the specific sub-group of NT's that one is referring to could lead to the gist of the message being lost in a taxonomy and glossary of terms.

But the real problem is that if you want Aspies to stop complaining about NT's, then perhaps you should suggest to that sub-group of NT's that finds AS behavior intolerable, that they stop treating us with contempt and also stop shooting their AS children.

BlackjackGabbiani. Huh. Familiar name... can't possibly be the chick I knew in the Pokémon/TR fandom aaaages ago with the Domino icon, right? If that isn't you, sorry. I swear that was her username.

Sorry for the off-topicness. Do continue.

I think that this is a great example of a "bash post" that paints a broad brush of stigma across a whole range of behavior using narrow views. I.e. what you have posted is a vague, ambiguous set of accusations. You vaguely frame a certain range of behavior as being bad, using inflammatory language like "ignorant", "horrid", "oppressive", "sick of", and then never even explain specifically what kind of talk comprises "bashing" versus how we are allowed to talk about NT?

How about you give us a series of specific examples of what comprises "NT-bashing"? I mean, go cut and paste at least 12 full paragraphs from this site, and then explain why and how it is "bashing", instead of this broad, unspecific accusation? It is far more constructive to be specific when criticizing other people, because the truth of what you are trying to say will be supported and focused, if you give clear examples and explanations.

If you would like a good example of "bashing", YOUR post is a prime example of a "BASH", with its vagueness, its condemning language used against behavior you never quite describe specifically, along with your assumptions that the people who engage in the behavior you are dumping on are personally defective, motivated by negativity and are harming others.

How much you wanna bet that what you think is "NT bashing" is just discussing NT traits from a perspective other than NTs are "normal" and we are "deviant". For example, someone questioned my use of the term "social obsession" to describe how NT's are fixated on social things. Well, if you put AS "special interests" and "fixations" on an equal footing with NT traits, you can see that NTs spend an enormous amount of money, time, attention, work and most of their lives on socializing. They skip food, diet and have surgery to improve their appearance, spend thousands of dollars a year on clothes, spend enormous amounts of time at work and at home socializing, buy cars that are big and flashy instead of tiny and fuel efficient, lie to avoid humiliation and on and on... If the tables were reversed, and it was AS people who spent so much of their lives and resources on a particular thing as much as NTs spend on socializing and social status, then we would be deemed to be "obsessed" with that thing. When I used the term "social obsession of NT's" I was only putting the NT typical fixation on social things on equal footing with AS traits, which my own theories of cognitive function actually indicate to me that they are.

How much of what you call "NT bashing" is your objection to using language that puts NT traits on the same footing as AS traits, like talking about their exhausting fixation on social status and socializing as being "obsessive" -- as AS people are described as being "obsessive" if we put that much into one area of our life.

How much of what you think is "NT bashing" is just stuff that you don't understand? How can you be sure you get everything that you are condemning as bashing speech? Perhaps, maybe, you have a dim and confused notion of what goes on out there and it makes you feel insecure and threatened to imagine that NT's "normality" isn't all benign. I.e. "normal" for some means "okay" as in "not bad". Like "No, you're jumping to conclusions, he's not a bad guy. That's normal for how police talk." Well, when you're discussing "normality" from a social science behavior, it just means what is statistically expectable, not synonymous with "that's normal" == "that's okay". For example, it is normal for NTs to hit another person over some perceived social insult, in the sense that AS people wouldn't normally fight over social insults. If you want to argue about whether it is normal for NTs to hit another person over some perceived social insight, go look at the crime blotters, and then go to some sports bar or workplace and ask the guys there if they ever hit someone and why.

How much of what you think is "NT bashing" is your fear of hearing AS people talk about those things that you fear -- that the "normals" are not all "okay" and that even "normal" "normals" do things that are bad and that we have a hard time accepting and understanding.

How much of what you think is "NT bashing" is that which you don't understand, intellectually, and you just want to silence because it makes you feel uncomfortable?

Why don't you post some specific examples of the behavior you object to, explain what is "NT bashing" and what are acceptable ways for us to talk about NT's behavior compared to our own, and then tell us how we are supposed to think and talk about these things so that you feel comfortable?

"Diversity" isn't just about physical differences. "Neurodiversity" includes having different kinds of minds. Different minds perceive different worlds of meaning. THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL FRAME OF REFERENCE FOR ANYTHING YOU ARE TRYING TO ASSUME IS BLACK-AND-WHITE. You have no clue that people can experience different worlds even though they occupy the same space. In my personal opinion, you are offended at language and discussions, that you don't even begin to understand the implications of what "neurodiversity" means. You can't point to one frame of reference and say "this is THE world view" and then point to us and say "there are the abnormal ones who don't get it." The fact that you assume that there is a black-and-white universal frame of reference shows that you don't understand that the world of meanings of one person on this site may not map easily onto the world of meanings onto the other, and that the discussions are as important for the opportunities to try to match up frames of references and coordinate understandings, as they are for any point that the threads have. Especially the discussions about NT behavior.

Just the fact that you can post this vague rant, panning the views and semantics of other people, without being specific about any of your definitions of (1) what is bad, (2) what is acceptable and your (2) black-and-white assumptions that all share the same view of what NTs are supposed to be, shows that you have no clue what "neurodiversity" is.

Being in a neurodiverse world means acknowledging that there are different ways of thinking and talking about a thing, and that usually means that sometimes, you will be uncomfortable.

But you are free to post this rant, just as others are free to, if they want, unload their fear and anxiety and confusion about issues, including their confusion about how discussion can be sometimes chaotic and inconsistent in a neurodiverse community. If we are supposed to constrain discussion of NT behavior to some set of rules that are acceptable, it would be more constructive if you taught us how to talk instead of just dump your disapproval.

In my personal opinion, I think that the people who keep arguing with those who discuss NT behavior, or who try to explain how we are supposed to talk about NTs, are actually not AS. If you have AS, you understand why it is so important to take a behavior, frame it different ways, dissect it and run it through different scenarios. That includes using different "voices" in your head, like the judgmental voice, the understanding voice, the happy voice, the optimistic voice and so on. When an AS finally gets an understanding of a piece of NT social behavior, it becomes a small but valuable addition to their slow-growing collection of social insights, that are hard to come by. The people who keep bashing AS for doing this, should be polite and stop trying to interfere with it, because it's so essential to the social cognitive development of AS.

Last edited by ephemerella on 11 Dec 2008, 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

This community exists for a variety of reasons, especially to support AS, so threads will naturally be polarized towards AS members but I don't feel there is an NT bias

Sometimes there is a sense that a few members automatically 'support' a fellow aspie and may occasionally be dismissive of opinions of NT members, but that
certainly doesn't imply that the majority of members share their (perfectly legitimate)viewpoint.

It seems so much to ask that we have this one place to talk, without NTs forcing their worldview on us.

I have seen some posts here that were angry at NT people (although given how many autistic and AS people have been treated in the past, I don't think their anger is unjustified at all). The majority, though, I perceive as simply commenting on and analyzing NT behavior in the same way that NTs might analyze AS behavior on a board set up purely for NTs with AS friends and family members.