NTs' logic - YES, there is such a thing

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I've been meaning to write this for quite some time, and seeing some of the new threads in the last couple days has spurred me to finally write it.

It bothers me to see so many threads and so many posts about how NTs are
ILLOGICAL
EMOTIONAL
IRRATIONAL
CHILDISH
SELFISH

We Aspies/NLDers have a neurological limitation that doesn't let us see / understand / grasp / discover the nonverbal unless we devote a lot of thinking energy and time for observation, data gathering and analysis, and conclusion forming. The fact that we don't/won't/can't always devote this time and energy, doesn't mean there isn't a perfect logic behind NTs' behaviors / actions / reactions.

Saying that NTs don't have logic just because we don't see their logic because it's nonverbal is like saying that:

BLACK PEOPLE ARE INVISIBLE AT NIGHT - because you can't see them if they're wearing dark clothes.
GAY PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOOD - because you don't happen to feel attraction to your same sex.
ASPIES ARE WEIRD - because you don't understand their logic

The reason it bothers me so much is that I very often feel left out here, being one of very few (and sometimes the only one) who see and can discuss certain more complex dynamics in the NT world (which we all need to learn in order to live a fairly good life).

Discussion of how ""NTs don't make sense"" doesn't teach me anything. It's not true and it's just ranting without any more productive outcome than being reassured that "we" are right and they're just simply "wrong". A mutual / group mental masturbation thread is quite relieving after a stressful day having had to interact in the NT world, I understand that, but at least some of the discussion should be productive, for our own benefit.

I crave to see at least SOME discussion of the more complex interactions / politics / dynamics in the NT world we live in, and which I face every day, and how to deal with it. I really could use that kind of discussion to improve a bit my life in this NT world.

Eg: I offer a colleague to accompany her to a place she doesn't feel like going, she agrees happily, says she'll come in a few minutes to my office to pick me up. Then an hour later I find out she's already been and back. She went with someone else and didn't even inform me. Rather than apply the ""illogical, selfish, childish NT"" rant, I try to understand what made her act that way and draw conclusions about how people behave and why. This helps me survive better in a world that's so confusing to me.

What's so wrong about learning something from each other here?????

Shouldn't most of it be re-phrased as "NTs don't make sense to me"?

Anyway, NT logic is different from our logic, I think; they will work in groups for many things, working things out using multiple brains instead of just one. NTs actually work more efficiently in groups than alone.

They also use a lot of non-linear thinking, so that they get a "hunch" about something, drawing a conclusion without going from step to step like most logically oriented people do. Often times this gets expressed in emotions.

Emotional/relational thinking is also something many NTs do. They'll make decisions based on how they feel. This kind of thinking might seem illogical but there's more to it than just the facts--the "illogical" decision that risks more than can be gained has the dual purpose of also cementing the relationship within the group, and the relationship itself can bring more benefits than might the immediate result of not taking the risk in the first place.

Aspies use these kinds of thought, of course; just less. And NTs think logically too; just not as often.

The only way you can know why someone did something is to ask them directly. We can all speculate together about why people do what they do but do we really know for sure? If that scenario were true and a friend really did that, the only advice I could offer is to ask "what happened, I thought we had plans" and then if she made a lame excuse or lied you could post about that and we could all give our opinions. How can anyone here know for sure what happened?

Well, if you ask enough people, you start to see patterns--which is exactly what researchers who study cognition do.

That's interesting. You could make notes of the answers and see if there is a pattern...Maybe someone here could figure out what the pattern means. We're Aspies, after all!

Yes I've never understood the NT rant because I've known so many NTs in my life and found them just as complex and different as aspies. I don't know why there is a lot of categorizing other than maybe it's an "aspie/autie" thing...kidding. But I see an awful lot of it and it's not just the NTs.

Anyway, I've known very interesting NTs who did happen to understand some of my logic and didn't put me down for coming off akward as I've known NTs who have come off just as akward if not more.

I think it's a human trait to rant by using labels as it helps to explain simply just why one's problem with certain people is the way it is. Not a good idea but for some people it might be the only means they know of. I think I've said it time and time again that I hate bias generalizing unless there is some kind of evidence or experience that relates to it besides just because........

I won't say what else bugs me since this is your topic but I have noticed an awful lot of that here on WP. Not that anyone is necessarily wrong or evil but it does bug me when no one is willing to listen or share with what you have to say. I find NTs just as interesting as aspies and I don't think any of them have it easier than some of us. I've known very unhappy NTs who have suffered from social anxiety and depression and am able to identify with them at many lengths. I think rehab and meetings helped me get to know myself better with NTs who were suffering from addiction and depression just as this board does with some of the difficulties and experiences I have with aspergers.

Aristotle, who was probably Normal codified logic.

ruveyn

Thanks for this topic, Greentea - I always enjoy reading your take on things! I happen to agree with you - some of us desperately crave a "discussion of the more complex interactions / politics / dynamics in the NT world we live in, and which I face every day, and how to deal with it."

For most of my life, I saw social interactions as totally confusing & frustrating - and I had no idea why I might feel that way. I view my recent discovery of the autistic spectrum & my place on it as an opportunity to use that knowledge (along with the memories of all my past social failures) to start making sense of things. I really want to improve my life.

I've had (and continue to have) many experiences such as you've described here & in other threads. People do things that don't make sense to me - I don't see their motivation. People misunderstand my intentions. Just because we don't understand each other doesn't mean we CAN'T understand each other.

I feel as though I now have an advantage, since I know I'm on the spectrum & am becoming more and more aware of how my tendencies depart from NT tendencies. (Since most NTs in my life don't know I have AS, that gives me a sort of power - I possess knowledge that they don't.)

I totally understand what you are saying, but you do realize that many people who felt victimized by NT behaviors just really do need a place to vent and rant, and this is the only place that's going to understand that. A lot of it is out of anger, and like when two people argue, you say a lot of things you don't really truly mean.

And, just a note, the phrase, "NT's are illogical" is the same as saying, "They don't make sense" and "They don't make sense to me." It's all the same thing. Illogical means that it doesn't make sense. Stupid which is the term I tend to use a lot, especially when angry, now that's a different story. Even though I think a lot of NT behavior is stupid, I still try to learn it because I'm in an NT world. If I were in a Barbie World, I'd be breaking out the Malibu bikini.

I've actually noticed two types of anti-NT sentiments on here (and I fall into both types). The first type are people who just bash them because they are angry, hurt, or just want something to bash and on this forum, that's the easiest target. I personally tend to favor bashing NT's and Baptists because of my personal experiences with them. I'm still hurt by those experiences, and sometimes I need to let it out, but more often on this forum, it just comes out whether I need to or not.

The other type I notice is those who actually do try to understand NT's and think it makes no sense whatsoever, or that it makes less sense than the other options. Like the little lies. NT's have a certain amount of lies that are permitted and some that aren't. Anyone in their right mind, including NT's, have got to think that's ridiculous. I know NT's do think it's ridiculous because those same lies that are socially acceptable wouldn't be acceptable in court under oath. That's also why many attorneys' first strategy to discrediting a witness is to catch them in those common socially acceptable lies. That's also why I think Aspies make great court witnesses.

Anyway, some people really do put a science to it. I've seen some real interesting arguments, observations, and view points on the subject Anti NT.

Greentea: I think I´m a little of both. I do tend to categorize people, I´m afraid; I think it´s inherent in my personality, and I think it´s my way of making sense of things, putting it in order, so to speak, which in turn helps me to understand. I think sometimes this categorization may be helpful for some people, although we all have our own methods. But on the other hand, if somebody (NT) does or says something I don´t understand, I try very hard to change my perspective, and figure out why the person said or did that thing. In addition to that, I read a lot of books about psychology and sociology to "figure out" the human race. Basically, I agree with you, I have tried to understand these things my whole life, and I´m sure this attempt has helped me a lot. I notice a definite progression, as I get older, in my ability to interact with people.

I am quite interested in information gathering and analyzing NT behavior, and I find your threads quite interesting, so whenever you start another "NT" thread, count me in!

One thing might be worth noting, however: there was a comment in a book written by Sarah Hendricks (I hope I spelled her name right). She is an NT in a relationship with an AS man, and she wrote a book for people with AS. She said that AS people tend to use logic in their way of thinking and being, and she explained that NT people are different; that rather than being logical all the time, NTs tend to be easily influenced by other people and emotions (changeable). I don´t remember the exact quote, but after reading it, a light bulb went off in my head . I could pretty much see this, from observation, but just having her put it into words like that was so helpful for me! I realized it was a fact, it just is. And that maybe I don´t have to understand it exactly, it´s just the way it is. They are different, and I can just accept that.

Saying that NTs don't have a logic, as opposed to saying that NTs have a logic we're blind to, is lying to ourselves to make things easier for us so we don't have to try and discover the logic behind their actions. This is the very criticism we have of NTs.

The things NTs do have a logic, even though they themselves don't see it because it's mostly intuitive for them.

Favoring belonging over individual fulfillment is NOT illogical. It's a choice. Like any other choice, you live with the good and the bad of it.

Morgana, you're one of the very few on here who are on my same road of discovery rather than labelling, that's why we enjoy each other's threads.

There's usually a very complex dynamic going on among NTs in interaction, and I often think I'm the only one seeing it here. It's so complex that I could never emulate it, and it's impossible to grasp entirely only with intellectual analysis. For NTs it's easy because it's instinctive.

Like the blind, some Aspies choose to remain in the narrow confinements of their room so they don't have to work hard at finding their way in the dark of the NT world. I want to be able to at least function enough in the NT world that I can keep a job and do some transactions satisfactorily.

I doubt any books on AS teach how to survive among the social maneuvers of NTs.