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diehard
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18 Mar 2009, 11:16 pm

i failed 2 exams in mathematical proofs already, does this mean that i shouldn't major in math?
i think i failed the 2nd one. math is my favourite subject and it's basically the way i think naturally. i want to major in math, but i already failed 1 math course and other courses. i get accomodations from the disability resource center in my university. i have ocd and maybe add. does the grades indicate my intelligence and math ability as being inferior?



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18 Mar 2009, 11:21 pm

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Last edited by garyww on 18 Mar 2009, 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Mar 2009, 11:23 pm

What are your other options to major in and are you likely to have similar problems in future with them. To be honest, you need to grab a sheet of paper and make two lists, one of pros and the other of cons.



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18 Mar 2009, 11:41 pm

diehard wrote:
i failed 2 exams in mathematical proofs already, does this mean that i shouldn't major in math?
i think i failed the 2nd one. math is my favourite subject and it's basically the way i think naturally. i want to major in math, but i already failed 1 math course and other courses. i get accomodations from the disability resource center in my university. i have ocd and maybe add. does the grades indicate my intelligence and math ability as being inferior?


As I recall, you were obsessing on your attraction to this professor while you were failing his exams. Not focusing on your work when you're teetering on failing exams kind of sets you up to guarantee failure. Getting that distracted by flirting while you are supposed to be studying and testing, may show that you are unable to maintain professional priorities and focus.

If you can't maintain a professional focus while you are in school where work is so clearly structured, you may not be suited to work in an intellectual field at all. I would question whether you're cut out for an intellectual, professional career.

The first proofs class shouldn't be that hard. I assume this wasn't advanced calculus. If this was just an introduction to proofs course, you should have been able to pass it if you're someone who would major in math. There's tutorial material all over the Internet and plenty of practice exercises, if you were struggling. You might want to start on plan B.



diehard
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18 Mar 2009, 11:51 pm

ephemerella wrote:
diehard wrote:
i failed 2 exams in mathematical proofs already, does this mean that i shouldn't major in math?
i think i failed the 2nd one. math is my favourite subject and it's basically the way i think naturally. i want to major in math, but i already failed 1 math course and other courses. i get accomodations from the disability resource center in my university. i have ocd and maybe add. does the grades indicate my intelligence and math ability as being inferior?


As I recall, you were obsessing on your attraction to this professor while you were failing his exams. Not focusing on your work when you're teetering on failing exams kind of sets you up to guarantee failure. Getting that distracted by flirting while you are supposed to be studying and testing, may show that you are unable to maintain professional priorities and focus.

If you can't maintain a professional focus while you are in school where work is so clearly structured, you may not be suited to work in an intellectual field at all. I would question whether you're cut out for an intellectual, professional career.

The first proofs class shouldn't be that hard. I assume this wasn't advanced calculus. If this was just an introduction to proofs course, you should have been able to pass it if you're someone who would major in math. There's tutorial material all over the Internet and plenty of practice exercises, if you were struggling. You might want to start on plan B.


do you mean that i only have an average intelligence?



ephemerella
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19 Mar 2009, 12:20 am

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do you mean that i only have an average intelligence?


I think that your intelligence doesn't matter, if you don't work and you can't maintain professional priorities. If you are dreaming of the professor as you're failing the class, when you need to focus and pass the tests, you may not be motivated or responsible enough to try to have an intellectual professional job. Maybe you should have a fall-back plan to get skilled-labor or blue collar/pink collar training, just in case.

Some inability to focus and organize time is due to ADD and AS traits. Some is just being pointless and directionless as a matter of character.



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19 Mar 2009, 8:33 am

If you have average intelligence, it means you'll need to work harder... well, if "average" means smack-dab average, you will, because most college students are in the average range, below the point where they could be called "gifted". So that means you can make up with effort and creativity what they do with raw power; you may be in the bottom half of the class where SATs are concerned, but you did get accepted, so it can't be all that bad. Heck, get yourself a tutor; that'll give you even more of an edge, if you learn at all from other people. Many higher level college students will tutor for a relatively small payment; some colleges even offer it for free.

"B" and "C" students often learn the material more thoroughly than "A" students, anyway. Many employers will hire a "B" average over an "A" average, because they know that you're more likely to get a "B" through effort, and they'd prefer someone who can put out effort to someone who can just breeze through things by cramming and memorizing.

That said: Many students do have to re-take a class. Proofs is a difficult class; it's a lot like the statics class in an engineering major--it's one of the classes that many students will fail and switch majors, or fail and re-take, and it's rather normal for an average student to do one of the two. I had to re-take physics 2, and I passed the second time around, and passed circuits (which builds on physics 2) after that. So yeah, you can fail a class, come back and learn it, and stay in your major.

So here's the question: Look back at the beginning of that proofs class--the first couple of weeks. Check that work. Can you do it now? If so, you've learned since you started the class, which means you're probably capable of completing the class. If the basic stuff from the beginning of the class is still Greek to you, you may need to switch majors. Re-taking a class isn't the end of the world, though; and you'll have a bit of a leg up on the work when you try it again, because now you won't be behind almost immediately. You'll also know "Alert! Difficult class!" and that means you can start asking your prof for help earlier, start setting aside more study time earlier, and start getting tutoring or accommodations earlier.

Okay, regarding switching majors: It's not the end of the world. If you're good with math but you have problems with the theory, I highly recommend some kind of engineering-related field... not least because that's my own field, and because nerdy people are expected in that field. Engineering is all about applying math; and once you've learned differential equations, you probably won't use anything more complex. You don't even touch tensors, and you will use a computer to brute-force a lot of the stuff that math majors figure out by hand. That said, engineering does more with visual-spatial than pure math does; so if you can't turn a shape around in your head or imagine what different forces might do to an object, you could have problems initially. (Computer and electrical engineering works on pure logic a great deal more than mechanical engineering does, though. If you're CE or EE, you're probably going to be able to get by with modest visual/spatial, if you can think abstractly and follow a train of logic.) The nice thing about switching, early on, from math to applied science is that the math classes will be required for your new major, too, so you may not add more than a semester to your anticipated graduation date.

One more thing: If you're in a difficult major like math or science, or one that requires a lot of work, like music/art or English, you're better off taking a light load. Students have passed with 12 credits and failed on 18, for no other reason than having more breathing space and study time on the lighter load.


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19 Mar 2009, 10:43 am

Callista wrote:
Okay, regarding switching majors: It's not the end of the world. If you're good with math but you have problems with the theory, I highly recommend some kind of engineering-related field... not least because that's my own field, and because nerdy people are expected in that field. Engineering is all about applying math; and once you've learned differential equations, you probably won't use anything more complex. You don't even touch tensors, and you will use a computer to brute-force a lot of the stuff that math majors figure out by hand. That said, engineering does more with visual-spatial than pure math does; so if you can't turn a shape around in your head or imagine what different forces might do to an object, you could have problems initially. (Computer and electrical engineering works on pure logic a great deal more than mechanical engineering does, though. If you're CE or EE, you're probably going to be able to get by with modest visual/spatial, if you can think abstractly and follow a train of logic.) The nice thing about switching, early on, from math to applied science is that the math classes will be required for your new major, too, so you may not add more than a semester to your anticipated graduation date.


I agree. If you like math but have difficulty or a lack of interest in pure mathematics, major in engineering, computer science, physical science (e.g. physics), or economics where mathematics are tools of the trade. You'll study advanced mathematics in those majors and may find it satisfying to see mathematics applied to solve practical problems. Then, if you are talented and decide to go onto grad school, you can pick a specialty that is heavily involved in mathematics. For example, if you majored in physics, you could get your Ph.D. in mathematical physics where there is essentially no division between mathematicians and physicists.

The other thing to remember is that even if you aren't a math major, you can still take the elective courses in the math department that you like as long as you carefully plan your schedule.



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19 Mar 2009, 12:08 pm

Einstein got what in school for grades?

No, your grades only exhibit your teacher's ability to teach and your willingness to learn... Not to mention that you might have a massive major distraction going on in that specific math course completely interfering with your willingness to learn. How much of your time in that class during lectures do you spend, possibly, daydreaming?

You major in what you want to major in. It has more to do with what type of job you wish to work after you get your piece of paper that says you know what you are doing. It has nothing to do with your intelligence.

So... BAD GRADE no bearing on INTELLIGENCE and INTELLIGENCE has no bearing on SUCCESS IN COLLEGE. Need proof? Doesn't George Bush have a degree? I've had teachers with Masters in Math that even I stump with a math question.

Either way, the important thing is FINISH SCHOOL. It doesn't matter so much what you pursue as long as you don't give up and continue pursuing it. What is worse than failing a couple exams? Not getting the degree. I promise you, the exams won't be brought up in job interviews. Keep you mind on your ultimate goal. Why are you in college in the first place? Why are you majoring in math in the first place? The answers to those questions will be your ultimate goal, and just keep that in mind when making decisions about achieving it.

Also, keep in mind that if you change your major frequently, if you are on financial aid, they do require you get your degree within a limit amount of credits. They also don't like drop-out rates, even if you change a class, they consider it as unfinished. So, if you are getting student loans at all, you are best to stick with whatever decision you started with. But you can easily switch to a similar major (one that requires a lot of same classes you already completed) without too much problems.

And, I noticed someone mentioned engineering, and I hear that's a good field for Aspies. NASA employs many Aspies.



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19 Mar 2009, 12:19 pm

Do what makes you happy, even if you aren't a pro at it. Take me, for example. I love to draw, but I'm not as good as a lot of my peers. However, I keep trying to get better at it because it's something that makes me happy. I think it should be the same for you and math.



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19 Mar 2009, 12:41 pm

diehard wrote:
i failed 2 exams in mathematical proofs already, does this mean that i shouldn't major in math?


I am not sure about the level of your class, but in many universities the first math analysis course (after calculus, differential equations, linear algebra, etc.) that involve heavy proofs weeds many people out of the major. There is a huge difference between the rote memorization and application of equations and solving mathematic problems and writing a mathematical proof.

This first class is hard for everyone. I remember my first analysis class ... EVERYONE failed the first few tests. Luckily it was graded on a curve.

There are two parts to the proof: (i) solving the problem, and (ii) explaining the solution. You need to be able to solve the problem and it helps to think naturally at that level. If this is where your problem lies, you may want to choose a different major. If your problem lies in writing the proof, this is something you can learn if you get feedback from your professor (or his assistant) on what you are doing wrong and stick with it.



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19 Mar 2009, 9:03 pm

My sister majored in math and she told me that everyone fails at least one course. Other people here seem to know all the gory details.

I think what is most important is how important is math to you? There are very few jobs in math, even though just about everyone else uses it. (My sister worked in a high tech call centre when she graduated.) Why study it in the first place? If it is important to you, keep plugging away. If you wouldn't miss it, then go back and have another look at your core goals, and consider alternate paths.

I knew someone who knew perfectly well there were no jobs in math, but wanted to do it anyway. That's the attitude to have. It's something inside you that needs feeding.



diehard
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19 Mar 2009, 9:29 pm

ephemerella wrote:
Quote:
do you mean that i only have an average intelligence?


I think that your intelligence doesn't matter, if you don't work and you can't maintain professional priorities. If you are dreaming of the professor as you're failing the class, when you need to focus and pass the tests, you may not be motivated or responsible enough to try to have an intellectual professional job. Maybe you should have a fall-back plan to get skilled-labor or blue collar/pink collar training, just in case.

Some inability to focus and organize time is due to ADD and AS traits. Some is just being pointless and directionless as a matter of character.


you won't be saying anything more to me



diehard
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19 Mar 2009, 10:02 pm

Tantybi wrote:
Einstein got what in school for grades?

No, your grades only exhibit your teacher's ability to teach and your willingness to learn... Not to mention that you might have a massive major distraction going on in that specific math course completely interfering with your willingness to learn. How much of your time in that class during lectures do you spend, possibly, daydreaming?

You major in what you want to major in. It has more to do with what type of job you wish to work after you get your piece of paper that says you know what you are doing. It has nothing to do with your intelligence.

So... BAD GRADE no bearing on INTELLIGENCE and INTELLIGENCE has no bearing on SUCCESS IN COLLEGE. Need proof? Doesn't George Bush have a degree? I've had teachers with Masters in Math that even I stump with a math question.

Either way, the important thing is FINISH SCHOOL. It doesn't matter so much what you pursue as long as you don't give up and continue pursuing it. What is worse than failing a couple exams? Not getting the degree. I promise you, the exams won't be brought up in job interviews. Keep you mind on your ultimate goal. Why are you in college in the first place? Why are you majoring in math in the first place? The answers to those questions will be your ultimate goal, and just keep that in mind when making decisions about achieving it.

Also, keep in mind that if you change your major frequently, if you are on financial aid, they do require you get your degree within a limit amount of credits. They also don't like drop-out rates, even if you change a class, they consider it as unfinished. So, if you are getting student loans at all, you are best to stick with whatever decision you started with. But you can easily switch to a similar major (one that requires a lot of same classes you already completed) without too much problems.

And, I noticed someone mentioned engineering, and I hear that's a good field for Aspies. NASA employs many Aspies.


i think my grandpa, dad and uncle are aspies and they're all in different fields of engineering. i also like engineering. it seems like my type of field.



Tantybi
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20 Mar 2009, 1:59 am

diehard wrote:
Tantybi wrote:
Einstein got what in school for grades?

No, your grades only exhibit your teacher's ability to teach and your willingness to learn... Not to mention that you might have a massive major distraction going on in that specific math course completely interfering with your willingness to learn. How much of your time in that class during lectures do you spend, possibly, daydreaming?

You major in what you want to major in. It has more to do with what type of job you wish to work after you get your piece of paper that says you know what you are doing. It has nothing to do with your intelligence.

So... BAD GRADE no bearing on INTELLIGENCE and INTELLIGENCE has no bearing on SUCCESS IN COLLEGE. Need proof? Doesn't George Bush have a degree? I've had teachers with Masters in Math that even I stump with a math question.

Either way, the important thing is FINISH SCHOOL. It doesn't matter so much what you pursue as long as you don't give up and continue pursuing it. What is worse than failing a couple exams? Not getting the degree. I promise you, the exams won't be brought up in job interviews. Keep you mind on your ultimate goal. Why are you in college in the first place? Why are you majoring in math in the first place? The answers to those questions will be your ultimate goal, and just keep that in mind when making decisions about achieving it.

Also, keep in mind that if you change your major frequently, if you are on financial aid, they do require you get your degree within a limit amount of credits. They also don't like drop-out rates, even if you change a class, they consider it as unfinished. So, if you are getting student loans at all, you are best to stick with whatever decision you started with. But you can easily switch to a similar major (one that requires a lot of same classes you already completed) without too much problems.

And, I noticed someone mentioned engineering, and I hear that's a good field for Aspies. NASA employs many Aspies.


i think my grandpa, dad and uncle are aspies and they're all in different fields of engineering. i also like engineering. it seems like my type of field.


I did "civil engineering" in the military, and I mainly did drafting and surveying. I hated AutoCAD. It took everything in me to stay awake with it. I found myself drinking coffee like water in basic training, and then I was dipping on top of it for that extra sting to open my eyes. But, I did have fun designing something beyond my scope. Because it was a challenge, it was fun. It was also fun doing a great job and proving my NCO to be wrong (which I loved to do because he suffered severely from short man syndrome). I truly enjoyed surveying. It was half outside and half on the computer. It also required math and trig. AutoCad does all that for you. So in surveying, you get to do some of that yourself, especially when using old equipment. Newer equipment uses GPS devices to make drafting really easy. I also like working with ArcGIS software, especially mapping. Making maps was fun.

But there are so many types of engineers out there. Electrical engineering is a good one because they are hard to find anymore. Aerospace engineering is good. Mechanical Engineering is good. Another thing to consider is industrial work where you design things people sell, like inventions almost. You really want to look into all that sooner the better. The reason is you may not need a university as much as a technical institute depending on what type of engineering you are going after.

But, Engineering is a great decision because.... IT's an ASPIE FRIENDLY field, and it offers BETTER JOBS than math alone. If you continue to a Masters, you can still teach some math courses if you wanted.



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20 Mar 2009, 6:23 am

Anemone wrote:
My sister majored in math and she told me that everyone fails at least one course. Other people here seem to know all the gory details.

I think what is most important is how important is math to you? There are very few jobs in math, even though just about everyone else uses it. (My sister worked in a high tech call centre when she graduated.) Why study it in the first place? If it is important to you, keep plugging away. If you wouldn't miss it, then go back and have another look at your core goals, and consider alternate paths.

I knew someone who knew perfectly well there were no jobs in math, but wanted to do it anyway. That's the attitude to have. It's something inside you that needs feeding.


Between you and Callista I have to wonder if I'm just weird. In my experience it is not usual for maths graduates to "fail at least one course".

Hell, look at me. I have a graduate degree in physics but I am not naturally good at abstract maths. I found it boring as hell, also overloaded every semester. I have to admit I only did it out of pride because I refused to admit defeat (even though I knew I wasn't good at it). In fact the abstract maths was on top of a full physics/maths/comp sci. load. I also developed depression and became suicidal, skipped classes, etc for most of my undergraduate. Yet, I still managed to not only always pass the abstract maths courses all the way to the end of undergraduate and even get As at time. Ditto with all of my other courses. And this was a difficult research intensive school with "legendary" maths courses (I still shudder). I don't remember any one else making it to the end who failed any courses along the way. Those who failed tended to drop out of the pure maths courses. I do agree that the first class is the one where most of the drop-outs occur. Of course by the end of undergraduate our abstract maths classes were pretty tiny :) And no I'm no genius. My IQ is only in the high 120s which means I am above average but hardly even reach gifted status. Also I'm a bit "slow" in thinking. I don't "get" things quickly. So yeah, definitely not a genius!!

So, I don't understand where this idea that it is "usual" to fail comes from. I certainly didn't and I didn't see it in my classmates either...And as I said, I was hardly a model student or genius...