One NT psychologist conceptualizes how we see people -- ?

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This was stimulated by TobyZ's "AS and lacking Empathy" thread close by.

Was talking to a thoughtful, seasoned colleague today, who happens to be a neurotypical (NT) psychologist. We became involved in a discussion about autistic spectrum (AS) individuals, specifically how we see and relate to people. He envisions it thusly (paraphrased):

"Someone with autism sees other people as if they are bowling pins, - objects to be avoided as you are moving along."

"On the other hand, someone with Asperger's sees other people as people, but wants to be a part of them, be with them, but can't. It's like they are looking into a house through a window at the people."

I was fascinated at his conceptualization, because I have not actually experienced it in either dimension. It bears no relation to how I experience others. But do you? Is this perhaps your experience?

(He does not know I am Aspergers.)

Got to thinking - perhaps this is another phenomenon like empathy, which we supposedly lack?

Perhaps we have two worlds - one NT, one AS - and will never truly understand one another because we have no commonality of experience?

I can't quite agree with him.

Its quite good to be among people for a limited time but very stressful for too long.

I vary between how he envisions "autism" and "aspergers".
Except for the part that says "but can't"... admitedly, I can't most of the time, but not always. Sometimes I can.

He might be onto something there...I am Asperger's and that description fits me perfectly.

That description is very good, i agree with it. It's like the expression one would have when looking at that thing you'll never have, but you wish you could.

I don't see people as through a window, like some Oliver Twist character watching the wealthy enjoy their Christmas goose. I've been at that table, I just get incredibly bored there, because all the people can talk about is themselves, rather than anything interesting. And when you attempt to change the subject, they all stare at you as though you just farted in their pudding.

So after a lifetime of experiences like that, I now avoid them as if they were bowling pins. No, you're supposed to hit bowling pins - I avoid them as if they were a cloud of gnats.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely like a cloud of gnats.

I'm an excellent driver.

Interesting analogy--And for me it brings to mind a couple of questions:

Does the autistic person see themselves as a bowling ball,and thinking thus intends to knock them down?Do they see themselves as a person, as human and try to avoid the pins because they know other people seem to get pissed off when they interact that way, or do they (like me) have no idea how to react and suspect that they take everything way too literally?

I am NT with a PDD child, and I have been reading this website for a while now to learn what it is like to have autism. The impression that I get is that the people in the AS world are just as diverse as people in the NT world. I also get the impression that it is just as hard to understand someone with AS as it is for someone with AS to understand someone who is NT. Our minds do see things from a different perspective a lot of the time. Unless you really live it you don't really have a grasp of what it really means to have AS because it can be very confusing. That said:

I think it can seem as though we live in 2 worlds because there are so many people who don't know anything about autism so they don't understand, but I dont believe we will never really understand each other. I think that we can, but the approach has to be different and the desire has to be there. I will never really understand what it is like to have cancer for example, yet I can imagine from descriptions of the experience what it must be like to go through something like that. I also don't look at that person as though the cancer is their identity and I think that needs to change for people with neurological challenges of any sort. If people were educated about autism, and then looked at each person as who they are, not an "autistic" person that include all of the assumptions, we wouldn't have as many difficulties relating. That goes for NT's too. There is more to me than just being the NT that I am. People need to understand more about the person just as much as the neurology because each person is different, AS or not. They need to stop making assumptions and accept people the way they are. This person you talked to doesn't seem to have a grasp of the diversity of autism. One thing I have learned is that you cannot make generalizations in any area...you can't with NT's and you can't with AS. We are all in the same boat. We just are in different rooms.

That's my 2 cents.

haha, funny but accurate description. I'm about the same; some days like this, other days like that, but never completely in synch with the world.

I quite agree with this. While I have often looked in through that window, I no longer have as strong a desire to join them. I like the illusion that they are having fun, more than the reality which is often nothing like I imagined!



Again, I agree. Gnats are more intrusive, and lest respective of boundaries than bowling pins are. And yet, I think I understand why bowling pins where used as an example. A lot of us have experienced that when we go into a store, for example. We tend to move quickly, in an effort to avoid unwanted contact, and to get to our objective, so as to leave the scene quickly. In that sense, we are bowling balls, not wanting to stop and tangle with the pins (other people) but to just get through the lane (social situation) swiftly.

There's no doubt that even among us ASD folk who post here, there is a tremendous amount of diversity, but I must say after living in a world full of folk who frequently look at me like I have fingers growing out of my head, it's wonderful to be able to share those "me, too!" moments with a few people who have had the same types of sensory and social experiences I have every day.

Hmmm...well, I'm not diagnosed with anything, but I believe I'm an aspie, at least mildly so. I suppose I mostly see people as bowling pins to be avoided, really. There are times when I would like to connect with people, and I can't. But the few people that I do have in my life would probably NEVER believe the above about me, because when they are interacting with me, I'm perfectly "normal." (Well, at least mostly, I think.) And as far as people being bowling pins, if one of the bowling pins starts to talk to me, which rarely happens, I deal with it okay. I'll answer them. Well, unless it's one of those obnoxious salemen at the shopping mall, trying to come after you with one of those scalp massagers or some such thing! Then I move away quickly!

So, it's not a bad analogy, I suppose, but not perfect. Of course, I don't think there can be one perfect analogy, because each person is a unique individual.

I thought bowling pins were meant to be hit...not avoided....

As for the second figure of speech, I completely agree with it. I've actually imagined myself doing this, and thought it basically described how I am with people.

Last edited by x_amount_of_words on 15 Apr 2009, 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I can understand that.

I agree with that part.

I can be with people (it's tiring...), look like normal (I hope), but I can't remember at least a few social situations in my life where I really felt connected with the people around me, where I didn't feel spectator or simply different. I see they must have fun but I don't... They speak but I can hardly listen or answer and mostly I'm simply not interested in... The best I can do is some kind of non convincing imitation from how I see them behave. I really tried...

I'm now 39. I can say that I have literally spent my entire adult life traveling around... to go into restaurants and bars when they aren't too busy. My ideal time is between 2pm and 6pm, even better if good happy hour food deals.

I have found it is an ideal environment to watch people. Watch friends who come in together, how they interact. To interact in predictable ways with waitress, seating, bartenders. on first visits, I like to sit at the bar and watch them make drinks (for other people) more than drink them - and to understand how humans do the same essential thing (making a drink) but each place does it so different.

I managed to get a Lighthouse style job in 2000 that paid well. (Tom Gray's AS page http://yourautism.co.uk/tom.aspx uses that term of "Lighthouse keeper" job, often extended hours and done alone by yourself.) I worked out a way to get my NT wife to work for me at home with me when she wanted to quit her deskbound high-stress job (911 operator). After 6 months of working together at home, I could tell she didn't like the isolation of it. So I worked out all the hard technical details in 2001 when cell phones and wireless Internet took a lot more effort. ((Aside: i always worked HARD at things, to fit social with technical, but I never understood until recently that NT's don't have to work so hard at it!))

My wife and dog and I literally traveled the USA and lived full time in an RV (what Motorhome people call 'full timers") and work our 45 hour a week jobs from cell phones and Internet. I was never rich, just middle class. But RVers constantly commented how unique we were doing this in our early 30's. I avoided the crowded tourist spots most times, but did my best to also provide that for my NT wife (we did New Years Eve in Las Vegas twice, but I had spent a lot of time in Vegas in our RV travels [popular RV hangout is Nevada/Arizona] and I knew my way around the strip and had worked out arrangements for dinner and such so that it was minimal of the true party craziness. My wife loved fireworks and I always felt my own internal pressure to enjoy crowds and fit in, that I never really enjoyed).

Even before I was married, at age 21 my computer career I moved cities every 2 years... it was good for the income, as companies often paid outside people from other cities more as it shows your commitment to the job. So going back to the start of my adulthood, I always was going into restaurants and other 'casual social situations' where I would watch people, talk to strangers, but never really make friends. Even in my job, I worked really hard to get along, but often after 18 months or so - social problems would start to get more serious - and changing jobs was routine in the industry - and a good way to avoid the long-term relationship issues.

I was unaware of my AS throughout all this. My marriage has been extremely unsatisfying for both of us, mostly due to me trying so hard to "act normal" and not realizing why I hit "glass walls" so hard. I won't get into the disintegration of my marriage and serious focus on AS 2 months ago... but it's an even longer story and as Tom Gray's page says http://yourautism.co.uk/tom.aspx : " I have never felt totally happy in a relationship, the big problem is being misunderstood. ".

The analogy of looking out a window and not being able to understand people - to a point of obsession for me - fits very well with how I reflect on my behavior and realization of what's different about me!

(Extra info: RV parks are often "single serving friends" too. you learn about people in a pretty structured and predictable way. I even lived with a family for 4 months in 1999/2000 while I did computer programming [traded work for housing], which I found fascinating - seeing the children and such. I was always trying to fit in, but never really able to do it)

Last edited by TobyZ on 15 Apr 2009, 3:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.