Why do NTs socialize in an irrational manner?

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THis is a direct question.

It is impossible to understand things which are based on irrationality.

Therefore, rationality is of utmost importance.

Everything in the universe must have a rational reason for it's existence.

Socialization and many social conventions are irrational and arbitrary.

Therefore it is impossible to understand NTs..

NT bashing is just masturbating.

As in all games, rules are arbitrary. I prefer to think of interactions as playing Go instead of Chess... but at least it isn't Global Thermonuclear War, eh?


M.

They are neither irrational nor arbitrary. Many people would go out of their minds with loneliness if they did not have sufficient contact with other people. Social conventions facilitate this contact. That is their rationale. Social conventions organically grow out of what works best for the maximum number of people in a society. Thus they are not arbitrary.

I could ask a very similar question in a more offensive context.

Rationalize for me the reasons for the existence of humans. Not only on this planet, but in the cosmos at large.

If you were a member of a different species on another planet (more advanced or less so), knowing human history and how we treat each other, would you be excited to hear we'd left our planet and were coming for a visit?

And what's the deal with cockroaches? Why do they exist?

Apparently the universe has a twisted sense of humor. After all the theological debates over which group of humans are supposedly God's favorite, I have to speculate that whatever group of conscious entities God favored most, would be the most numerous and bountifully reproduced on the planet...meaning God must be a cosmic cockroach. Or perhaps a spider. No wonder we're afraid of dying - just imagine what Heaven must be like.




And almost as much fun...

Arbitrary, yes, at least within the confines of human physiology and the real world (no humans are socializing via UV signaling or gamma bursts, for instance).

Irrational, no. There is a growing body of literature in cognitive science that puts social behavior into a rational context. From game theory in mathematics to evolutionary psychology, if you start reading these articles and books. I think you'll find much NT behavior is rational. It is however not something we Aspies would do, so it seems irrational (just as we probably seem at times to NTs).

I do agree that social conventions are not arbitrary, as they do arise from the utilitarian aspect of maximum good for the most people. I would not, however, suggest that this means that they are based on rationality.

Take for instance the motif of many of our lives as entities with AS, intelligent, rational, interesting people such as us are often and usually passed by for, someone once said, a socially adept caveman with no redeeming qualities apart from his/her social fluency. This man is often tally-marking, taking advantage, or at least not fully appreciating the spoils that come from his game-playing. Rational to engage in an interpersonal relationship that will inevitably end in heartbreak? No.

What is rational is to engage with someone who has difficulties, because they will endure, just as it is on the safe side to get with a fat chick because she will supposedly love you forever, and genuinely so.

And in these types of situations, it can be similar to a game of Global Thermonuclear War.

A strange game, and the only winning move is not to play.

They might not be arbitrary and irrational. Not completely. They are based on what the NT can tell about other people using his or her senses and intuition.
I'll give you an example:
I was once in a class and there was a lady who most would consider to be "awkward". You could call her socially awkward which, to me, is NBD but certain NTs will target people who are awkward (This is one of the reasons I'm so quiet because I want to avoid being the target) and they can figure out early on which ones they can get away with disrespecting. I've had several teachers, instructors and professors who do this. They want to show off in front of their class and gain brownie points with students so they pick an easy target to turn into the defacto class clown so they can make their students laugh and be liked by them. Someone is going to read this and think and perhaps post "that's not true", believe me, it is very true and I have seen it happen several times in my life so I know there are instances it occurs leaving the target not sure about how to handle the situtation ( I know from past experiences). There's no denying it.
We were reading off answers in the class and she was doing it in a certain way and after that the instructor was more disrespectful of her because he sensed there was something "off" about her and he was going to exploit it. However, soon after this, he found out something about her...she is one of the owners of a major retail chain of home decorating stores with headquarters located in the state. In other words, very successful and wealthy. Well. Guess what? As soon as he found out that I am sure you can figure out what happened...his entire attitude toward her completely did a total 180. He started kissing butt big time, being all polite and nice, going out of his way to talk to her and showed a lot of interest in her. It made me whince seeing it. To this day I remember how repulsed I was by this behaviour. Just because she came from money he managed to feign some respect for her but if she had been poor with no influence she would have had to put up with a lot of humiliation in that class.
It's not really an arbitrary thing. People will treat you according to what they think they can get away with and what they think you deserve, or what it will get them. You can pretty much predict this will happen. It's not fair or nice but most people do act this way. They respect you if you meet certain conditions or expectations otherwise they tend to use you or treat you like you aren't that important to them, don't mean much to them, or in a way that says they are superior.

Why do NTs socialize in an irrational manner?

When I judge someone to be guilty and execute them,
it pisses me off when they walk again.

To answer the question in the thread title, I believe it is because they "hang out" on the emotional side of the brain more than we do. They are comfortable there, and because of this they have become adept at using emotions to their advantage. Emotions are frequently irrational. What I have come to suspect, is that we are missing connective tissue in the brain that inhibits our ability to jump back and forth between emotional and logical thought with any degree of dexterity, therefore we have to make the choice of which side of the brain we wish to "hang out". Many of us choose the logical side, for to stay in the emotional side would render us basket cases, and as a result that side of the brain develops to a larger degree than if we spent less time there. Less distractions so to speak. I envision this as how many people who lose one of the five senses become more finely attuned to the other four. Conversely when that neglect is paid to the emotional side, it whithers, not unlike atrophy in a muscle.

I disagree with your statement that it is imposable to understand NTs, but I would contend that it is very difficult. They trust their emotions, we don't. I believe this is futher compounded by the fact that we rarely look people in the eyes. NTs have intuitively learned that this is a sign of dishonesty, therefore they don't trust us. It is highly ironic in light of the fact that most aspies are very honest, but they have learned, and therefore believe if we aren't looking them in the eyes we must be lying.

They just see things differently, that's all.

I used to think smalltalk was just plain stupid. Why ask me 'Are ya out for a cycle?' when I'm on my goddamn bike?

But I figured it was just a way of trying to connect with me. And I did appreciate someone taking the time out of their day to try and connect with me, even if they did it via asking stupid questions.

So basically I guess they don't have the same need as us for everything to be logical and literally relevant.

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:

That's exactly what it is. It took me a while to realize that. It serves it's purpose. Often great ideas come out of idle conversation. Small talk just keeps the flow moving.

Because the point of it isn't 'rationality.' It's like asking why basketball isn't scored like figure skating.

I dunno, "rationality" often seems to really mean, "I don't relate to your point of view, and reject it as illegitimate." If you're straight then maybe gay orientation seems "irrational." That's because (some) people assume their instincts are universal; has nothing to do with rationality.

Same kind of judgment some NT's put on ASD folk -- that their own 'instincts'/inner processes are universal, and so find unfamiliar behavior 'irrational' or 'unjustified'...

Why do humans socialize in an irrational manner?

ruveyn

I get your point.