Is it valid to compare AS against NLD?

Post Reply New Topic

I've read some literature about NLD, and to me it is so vague and subject to opinion that it's almost worthless. Especially confusing are the opinions about "AS vs NLD" and how you can "tell" the difference. I'm sorry, but there is no way that it is that clear cut, especially when they say that somewhere between 1/3rd and 4/5ths of people with AS have NLD (another very broad number).

For instance, I seem to fall somewhere in the middle. NLDers are supposedly not as good at math / computers and thinking in the abstract, but I am really good at this. Yet, I do have spatial issues and have a really difficult time locating objects right under my nose. I don't seem to have the more intense social problems that many with AS have (supposedly it's less extreme for NLDers), yet I don't have about half of the spatial processing issues that NLDers supposedly have.

And... what's up with Similarities and Differences section from this website? http://www.nldline.com/yvonna.htm

Especially this part:

Does this strike anyone else as an arbitrary definition of AS?

Sorry, this post is a bit rambly.

Yes, it is an arbitrary definition of AS and I don't believe it's true.

As someone with NLD and AS, I can tell you that both syndromes are equally severe for me and I can separate them with some overlap in the middle, as in a Venn diagram.

My NLD made me so disoriented that I couldn't find a grocery store only blocks away after four months of living in a new town. But NLD and AS both make me unable to read faces. AS gives me social problems and so does NLD.

I believe that my AS gives me special interests and obsessions and sensory difficulties. NLD doesn't do that. But, I believe NLD is a valid construct.

NLD can be caused by head trauma and certain diseases, such as hydrocephaly. It can also be inherited, as in my case. It is definitely a damage to the right brain, as documented in medical literature.

AS is always inherited, I believe.

Sounds like I could have NLD. I always had more normal emotions and wasn't very good at computers and technical stuff but rather verbal and philosophical. I definitely was never "flat".

I never heard about NLD before but it sure fits me well. Better than AS at least.

I have great verbal skills but have a hard time understanding mathematical concepts and I learn much better verbally than from writing.

I don't even use my right eye, it's non focused and I have to shut my left eye in order to switch focus to the right side. Normally I can't use both eyes simultaneously at all.

Last edited by Zoonic on 19 May 2009, 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

From what I've read, the heritability of ASD is still not entirely understood. There is obviously some, but it might also be possible for it to be induced. So to say it's entirely inherited is probably not accurate at this time.

If NLD is also affect-disabled, then with your empathic fluency, Zoonic, I'm not sure it will apply either.

Seems like there's a lot of variation in processing and we're just starting to understand it, so it's all kind of vague and... well, squishy... right now.

I have actually read in a few places that NLD and AS may actually be the same thing desribed by different professionals perspectives. Peopel who study learning disabilities seem to favor the NLD description while people with more of a psychology background tend to favor the AS description. I wish I could recall exactly where I read that.... It was a interesting article. At any rate, I tend to think that the two "labels" sound a lot alike. NLD isn't actually a recognized diagnosis, by the way. At least it isn't in Canada.....

I think NLD and AS are the same thing and that, like everyone on here seems to agree, we all have our own unique expression of the syndrome. I think some of us have more trouble in certain areas than others and that is all that NLD is.... a particular "flavor" of AS, if you will.

you guys should check out the NLD support sticky.
look basically the similarities/diff are still being debated.
it can frustrate bu thopefully by the time of the DSM 6 lol it'll mostly be resolved.

NLD'ers can be good at math.
also no Special Interest with NLD.

AS has more problems socially? and an extreme form of NLD possibly.

I thought it was only in 40% of the cases that they found other family members with AS?

My original point was not to discuss what NLD is, but that it appears to be compared against AS rather than with it. That is, there seems to be this idea that you either can have AS, or you can have NLD. The article I quoted even goes so far as to have a chart demonstrating where people with AS or NLD have similar or different trouble.

It can't possibly be categorized like that. It seems like there is a desire to keep NLD "off" the autistic spectrum. Is it possible that there is some sort of desire in people to have recognizable problem but not want to admit that the problems may be related to autism?

I don't think AS is an extreme form of NLD, from everything I can tell the problems of NLD can be just as, and in some cases more severe than AS. What I do know is that individual manifestations may turn up an odd mix of both.

For example BOTH have sensory issues. BOTH have deficits reading nonverbal language, the difference is with NLD more nonverbal language is missed, AS sees it but does not intuitively understand it. Both are prone to overlearning, though it seems folks with NLD don't always have a special interest, rather the overlearning is focused on asset areas (reading, verbal knowledge, music), where AS the interest is a driving force. Both struggle with sarcasm, personal humor, subtle and vague language.

I can go on, but what is known is NLD and AS are both caused by right hemesphere atypical development. Both are thought to be manifestations of "nonverbal autism". The differences seem to be NLD folks have visual deficits AS do not normally. Other than that they share alot of traits, and are grouped together for a reason.

Also with regards to mathmatics, I never got below a C in math, quite a bit of my work has involved statistical analysis, and I have never struggled with mathmatics in general.

I sometimes say NLD is AS twin sister...similar in many ways, but also different. Both seem to struggle just as much with being social, meltdowns,etc. The NLD folks also struggle with visual issues, and the AS folks tend to have a hard time focusing outside their interests. From what I can tell..they are equally difficult to deal with at times, and AS is not a more severe form of NLD.

Also I think individual manifestations can incorperate bits and peices from both.

Oh little addition. Most neurologists consider NLD a spectrum disorder, most psych. Folks are not sure. The fact is SPD, which like NLD, was originally a LD, is now considered a spectrum disorder and classified mostly as PDD-NOS in the US. NLD is tough to tell for psych because it manifests as a LD first, and Developmental Disorder second, even though its both. Most clinicians see the LD aspects first, so thats what they like to classify it as. Also it seems the social issues of NLD escalate in puberty, guess what they found out with AS in girls...the social issues appear in puberty.

The fact is its not decided but that is because it doesn't have a DSM category, it falls under either PDD-NOS or LD-NOS, or both depending on the severity, and clinician. Services have already moved towards treating it much the same way as AS. In fact most AS private schools, are AS and NLD. The world moves faster than the glacial dsm.

here's part of a paper copyrighted in 2001. There is more useful info to read from this paper. if NLD gets on the DSM V in 2012, hopefully research on this will get a nudge.

http://www.nldline.com/dinklage.htm

Studies conducted by the Yale Child-Study Group suggest that up to 80% of children who meet the criteria for AD also have NVLD. While there are no studies on overlap in the other direction, most likely children with the more severe forms of NVLD also have AD. Children from both groups are socially awkward and pay over-attention to detail and parts, while missing main themes or underlying principles. However, by convention, the two groups differ in the range of severity. Professionals reserve an AD diagnosis for children with more severe social impairment and behavioral rigidity; some symptoms may overlap with high functioning autism. There are degrees of severity within AD but not to the extent that is acceptable in diagnosing NVLD. These degrees can range from extreme autistic behavior to cases where the social difficulties are very subtle and the academic/cognitive difficulties are more prominent.

Here is a brief outline of the diagnostic criteria for AD and the pattern of neuropsychological findings in NVLD. While the overlap is apparent, the emphasis is different because criteria for NVLD focuses on academic issues as well as specific test findings and is not purely descriptive. This also results in different means of making the diagnosis (testing vs. observing).

I didn't paste the criteria

In my practice I have seen a number of children with AD who would not meet the criteria for NVLD in any previous research studies. If these children had participated in the Yale study mentioned earlier in this article, they would probably have been in the 20% of the AD children who did not meet the NVLD criteria. It is possible that the AD children in that 20% may have had very high visual/spatial scores, thus masking their over-attention to detail in problem solving. For example, they may have scored very high on the Block Design subtest of the IQ measure (using colored blocks to match a pattern given to them) despite having little or no appreciation of the gestalt; their considerable skill and speed at analyzing detail would have allowed them to use this inefficient strategy effectively. With these very bright children, it may be that the tests are not sufficiently sensitive to discern a pattern of NVLD. On the other hand, some children with AD show diffuse difficulties in language and attention domains, but may not exhibit the pronounced discrepancies associated with NVLD. Nonetheless, they may still struggle with the cognitive difficulties similar to those of someone with NVLD. Conversely, a child meeting the criteria for NVLD may not meet the Asperger’s Disorder criteria “C,” even though subtle characteristics of AD may be present.

Last edited by vivinator on 19 May 2009, 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

In the Wikipedia article, it says this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_learning_disorder#Description Now I know that I should take Wikipedia information with a grain of salt. But I was just wondering what they would consider to be "abnormal spiritual beliefs". I mean I'm a wiccan. Would this be considered to be abnormal? As to whether or not Asperger Syndrome can be synonymous with NLD, I am dyscalculic, and I consider it to be a comorbid of my Asperger's, along with my Tourette Syndrome. In fact I feel that AS, and NLD, both describe me well, in regards to personal charecteristics. I just don't see the relevance of our spirituality, in regards to our neuro-diversity. And I wish that the professional people wouldn't ask us about our religion, and/or politics. Once a Good Will caseworker asked me what my spiritual beliefs are. I played dumb, because I resented being asked. Finally my parents, who were present , answered that our family is protestant, which was what she put on the question form. From what I understand, they are not supposed to inquire about this, but apparently they do anyway.

What she meant is that AS is genetic, rather than environmental or cause by genetic mutation, not that everyone with AS has a parent with AS.



Psychologists are allowed to ask what religion you are. This can be important in some cases, if you follow a Native American Religion, and believe that spirits live in trees, then this is different than if you are Protestant and believe that spirits live in trees. The former is just a difference of spiritual beliefs, the latter means your crazy.

I have a theory that normal IQ autistics with Verbal IQ > Performance IQ should be in a different diagnostic category than those with Verbal IQ <= Performance IQ. Perhaps the latter are more closely related to those with traditional autism.

There are no official guidelines as to whether NLD and AS are different or are manifestations of the same thing. Psychologist and Neurologists have differing views on this subject. If a doctor said that the stomach not the heart pumps blood around the body, they would be crazy. Unfortunately our current understanding of psychology isn't so clear cut. Clinical diagnoses tend to be based more on patterns, grouping people together based on their symptoms, rather than on a good understanding of the underlying causes.

Actually I was going to delete that line in wikipedia that NLD is not a PDD because it lacks scientific consensus.

One has to realize that NLD does meet the requirements for PDD-NOS, and meets the definition of a PDD, which is a delay or atypical development in basic functions, especially communication and socialization. In particular with NLD it is delayed or atypical development in nonverbal communication. NLD is a communication disorder with LD features. But if you took out the LD out of the title, you are basically looking at features of atypical autism, but almost purely slanted to the verbal asset range, even the developmental delays with motor functions are there.

The problem is where to put NLD because it manifests as both a LD and a PDD...taking that NLD and AS share so much with each other, and NLD is clinically worse than other LD in terms of its diagnostic makeup...grouping it with PDD makes sense.