How to get Aspie husband to see he has AS

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Sent you a PM about that book.

Got your PM. Thanks.

There are some things that you can change and some that you can't.

You can move things from short-term to pseudo-long-term memory by establishing rules.

For example; I never used to "think" about my wife when I went to get a drink. After all, if she wanted to get up and get a drink, she would - right? Apparently that's wrong. I've slowly trained myself to pick up her cup whenever I get a drink now. It works. It's part of the rules.

In all honesty, I'm still not thinking about her when I get a drink but because I'm following the rules, it appears so.

It probably took me a year or two to fully train myself but it's been worth it.

The problem with this approach is that the individual has to want to work towards the goal. It should be a response to a desire for change, not a threat.

If you haven't read my recent series on Marriage Encounters, you might find it interesting. It would certainly help with the communication but whether the problem is lack of communication or simply unwillingness to change is anyone's guess.

I have a partner who says it's taken her more than a decade to surmount my resistance to training. Me, I feel like I've been cooperating in the endeavour. After a while, it's hard to pick "following the rules" from "knowing what's right".

Can you elaborate so I can better understand what you're saying? My husband also opts to do what he thinks is right rather than follow the rules.


Gavin -- I am still reading through your website!

I also have some of the features you describe about your husband, and have a "normal" wife, and I'd like to try and explain a little about how it feels or works in my own head, as it may help you to understand or come up with more coping or adjustment methods that could work for/with him. I am by no means trying to take his side, or make what he's doing seem more acceptable, because surreptitious drug delivery or refusing to protect a child from known things that can harm them are never acceptable. With that said, here goes, I hope some of this makes sense.

To me, sometimes there are rules which conflict with logic, not in a literal logic that you might be able to understand, but in a more "my logic" sort of system. It is nearly impossible for me to translate these "internal rules" into something that makes any sense if you wanted me to explain them, because a normal person would likely be able to see that the internal rule does not make sense, or possible consequences outweigh the personal rule, and therefore it should be disqualified. I can comprehend that, but I can't stop myself from giving my own rules or logic more value than those from some other entity ("the man" or otherwise) in my decision making process. I always feel like I know what is best and can do no wrong because my decisions make so much sense to me, and my reasons are so convincing all I would have to do is explain, while they make no sense to any normal people. It is very close to impossible for me to readjust these internal rules, although I am trying very hard it seems to those observing like I'm not bothering in the slightest. This is not to say your husband is trying his best, I would agree he may not be, but it is difficult to tell what he's actually doing inside his head aside from what he says (which admittedly could be half-lies just trying to pacify people, but that is very hard to decide). He also seems like he's having issues accepting his diagnosis, I'm not even officially diagnosed and I've automatically embraced it, it makes me feel better knowing why I can't help some of the things I think or do rather than feeling shame about them and wondering why I can't "just knock it off". He may be embarrassed about the diagnosis because he feels like if people knew they would label him as mentally handicapped or the like. It may help him to try and separate the concept of self from the concept of cognition - that has helped me so far. I can never ever be wrong, but I can blame my condition for mistaken decisions and then my concept of self is not damaged - in other words, "I" am never wrong and can never fail, but my brain might have made an error. Removing the shame or concept of failure like this may help, and shifting the blame to a biological organ which is not perfect may be one of the keys to dealing with it. He already seems to shift blame wherever it seems like it could go, showing he may be similarly unable to accept blame or failure, and generally the blame goes toward you or whatever else might be convenient at the time. That can also come off as the always being boasty or defensive even when it's not necessary. You mentioned he always has a long list of causes or reasons for his decisions - which probably come off as excuses, but really aren't - I do the same exact thing, and my wife calls them excuses which really makes me frustrated and sometimes angry. Excuses are lies, half-truths, or fabrications that make something OK, these are more like completely real feelings or concepts which forced the decision and there is no conscious effort to make stuff up to get out of trouble - it's a fine line difference but it is a very true difference and there is no way for someone external to his mind to know one way or the other - it's really a benefit of the doubt situation. The list of "excuses" is merely a dump of the exact factors which drove the decision, and prove that the decision was proper - at least in his thought process. I think underneath the reality that passing you drugs is dangerous and legally improper, his decision is driven by the intention of making and keeping you healthy, or at least "fixing" the issue at hand. This is a bit of the lack of empathy feature coming out. For example, when my wife complains about something, even if it's just straight venting (a completely normal interpersonal and social interaction) and even if I know it's just for the sake of receiving some comforting, my internal reaction is to do anything I can possibly do to solve the issue no matter what - and if there is nothing I can do I well up with frustration and anger at just hearing about it. I can intellectually comprehend why she needs to share/complain about things but I can not control my reflex to "fix it fix it fix it" rather than just commiserate, console, or otherwise simply be normal and empathetic. It's not that I don't want to hear about it if there is nothing that can be done, as I know that is damaging to the relationship (normal people have to share feelings to feel closeness), it's more that my internal reflexes are misaligned and I have to try very, very hard to control them. Sometimes there is just no winning, I either react and vent my frustration at the situation - which comes off as my being mad at her for having the problem/feelings in the first place or for telling me (absolutely not my feeling or intent!) - or I go silent because I have nothing good to say, and she gets upset at me because "it's like talking to a wall". It's a very difficult thing to work around and we haven't quite figured that part out yet either - empathy is very attached to the mental reflex and if you don't have the right reflexes in the first place it can be very difficult to "learn" the right responses. Even if you do, the response won't feel completely sincere because it is not rooted in actual caring/empathy, as it would come from a higher point in thought and it truly is being "faked" even if it isn't literally "fake". I really do care for and about my wife more than anything or anyone else in the universe, but at the same time I can't quite feel or act properly and fully caring. My only option is to display my caring by fixing every possible external influence or destroying every possible threat that she may complain about, which just isn't as emotionally satisfying to her, and really not to me either, I just can't help it.

I am not sure if any of this makes any sort of sense or if it will help in the slightest, since it's more of an explanation (not justification!) and less of a real solution, but maybe bending a little towards avoiding the triggers can help. I know it's not easy but maybe don't tell him you feel sick if you do, then it won't trigger his response to fix it (dose you with drugs). He may take the complaint as our asking for help, sort of like I do with my wife. Maybe if he still notices you look sick or ailing, tell him you already took whatever drugs he might slip you even if you didn't, that may work to stop him from doing so (a double dose would be bad, and could redirect his decision towards not doing it). Try to keep in mind that you aren't lying to him, but you're lying to his brain so his involuntary thought processes don't kick in. I am not sure what might work similarly with the allergy issue, but maybe you can come up with a method to trick his thought process into not reacting the way it usually does, but that seems quite a lot more difficult. Be careful with how you tell him not to provide things with allergens, if you tell him not to do it because it could cause dire consequences, he may do it just to prove it's not as bad as you say - just to prove his own internal assessment of the risks are correct. Maybe try a less confrontational or factual tact, instead of "it could cause" whatever consequence (triggering the "prove you wrong" reflex) just try something like "it's not good for them" - it's a little less of a fact that must be disproved that way and more of a simple rule that just is because it is.

So You have your own form of logic. You think it's somehow ok to pass off flawed behavior on blaming your brain, instead of taking responsibility and applying proper reactions, so you never have to be wrong. Rather than taking the time to listen and understand you think flying off the handle or giving the silent treatment are the only options you can handle. You think that lying to her husband as a way of controlling his behavior or "trick his thought process", is a good idea.

She wants her husband to understand what he is doing so he can change his behavior because it is unacceptable. You identify with the way he is behaving so much you are devising all kinds of ways to ensure he doesn't have to. AS or not being in a relationship is about putting your self aside when it comes to the needs and safety and well being of the ones you love.

Excellent post Spudz76.

It's taken me many years to overcome a lot of the 'brattiness' of my internal logic, without loosing who I am. Part of what helped me was having people in my life who were patient and helped me with rule-based external structure and boundaries without messing with my internal world. Another thing that helped me was being around lots of strange and wonderful people of all sorts, so I didn't feel that everyone else was normal and I was the only weird one.

One trick that works with me is separating information from emotional content. Any emotional tone adds to the complexity of the communication, and it doesn't matter if it's anger, sympathy, concern, whatever. I have to process the emotional content first, since it modifies the information (think of sarcasm). That distracts me from the information. And I'm not sure if I interpreted correctly so maybe the information is actually the opposite (sarcasm). I can accept matter-of-fact information said in a flat tone much better.

What was excellent about it?

Oh this is absolutely fascinating -- and you describe my husband to a T! I am so grateful that you wrote. I have some further questions inserted below.

"it is difficult to tell what he's actually doing inside his head aside from what he says (which admittedly could be half-lies just trying to pacify people, but that is very hard to decide)."

What kinds of things could be going on in his head? Can you give an example?

"'I' am never wrong and can never fail"

This is exactly how he ALWAYS acts. Why do you feel you can't be wrong? To err is human. His therapist says people with AS get put down a lot, but this couldn't be why my husband is this way, because his family and friends growing up were completely accepting of him and still are.

"He already seems to shift blame wherever it seems like it could go, showing he may be similarly unable to accept blame or failure, and generally the blame goes toward you or whatever else might be convenient at the time. That can also come off as the always being boasty or defensive even when it's not necessary."

That's him exactly.

"You mentioned he always has a long list of causes or reasons for his decisions - which probably come off as excuses, but really aren't - I do the same exact thing, and my wife calls them excuses which really makes me frustrated and sometimes angry."

That's him exactly. I react like your wife does.

"these are more like completely real feelings or concepts which forced the decision and there is no conscious effort to make stuff up to get out of trouble"

Oftentimes, but he is an absolutely brilliant liar at times.

"but maybe bending a little towards avoiding the triggers can help. I know it's not easy but maybe don't tell him you feel sick if you do, then it won't trigger his response to fix it (dose you with drugs)."

Yes, he even suggested that very same thing! Can you explain more about this knee-jerk response to fix? It almost sounds like a compulsion it's so strong. And can you elaborate on this way I should structure my requests/rules. This whole thing about having to prove himself right and me wrong is so on target. Please tell me more about why this is and how I can reword my statements/requests/rules.

Thank you SO much!! !

Can you tell me about "internal" versus external logic? I'm not sure I understand this. I like your trick. Thanks!

What I mean is, he may be so committed to trying to "fix" thought processes which he knows don't quite make sense to other people that he develops a perception that he is trying everything possible as hard as possible to improve himself. That is and was how I feel. But in "real reality" he is stymied in coming up with ways to do anything about it, either from lack of creativity or lack of ability for accurate insight to assess the effect of his efforts, so it's sort of like a mental treadmill. So nothing actually ever is done or gets better but it's not for lack of effort - "spinning his wheels" in the mud more or less. It's still hard work, and the goal is truly the same, so he is not lying just to pacify by saying he is giving it his all, but it just doesn't work or he runs out of ideas for things to try and keeps trying the same ineffective ones over and over hoping some day it will "click" and just work.


My family was reinforcing of the fact that I was ultra-intelligent and could do everything better than anyone. They took me to specialists for IQ tests and other various psychological tests. This was prior to the wider knowledge of AS in the United States mental health circuit, like the mid 80's or so, and that's why I was never diagnosed. They picked up on pretty much all the signs but since the diagnosis wasn't available until the early 90's, they thought I was just hyperactive and had a high IQ and maybe a couple other odds and ends and that's why I locked on to things so hard and spent lots of time alone a the library reading at a college level instead of socializing. So that probably didn't help my "can do no wrong" superiority complex. But one thing they never did was give me grief for trying something and failing, not even setting expectations that I would perceive as that - all of that comes directly from the AS and my own self forcing me not to fail. It is my own self being the domineering parent that screams at you and puts you down when you fail... imagine having one of those inside your own head that you can't get rid of! The feelings of failure are almost indescribably terrifying and must be avoided at all costs, there is no way to realign the feelings with affirmations like "to err is human" because the terror response has already triggered by the time it hits the level of mind where an affirmation or any other conscious effort could hope to correct it. I know it's a terror response because I get a huge rush of adrenaline when I realize I may have failed or done something incorrectly, which makes it even more difficult to not be defensive or frustrated. Maybe it's a deficiency in humility similar to the problems with emotion and empathy - sort of a lack of being able to feel sorry for yourself in quite the same way as neurotypicals. So within my mind I put myself down a lot and not on purpose either, I don't need for anyone else to do it - and that is likely the same as your husband feels and why it didn't matter that his family didn't put him down and didn't build fear with negative responses to failure, his mind does it to itself. Perhaps years of being incapable of certain instinctual reflexes and noticing that everyone else seems to "just feel it" or "just know it" already puts a strain on the failure mitigation facilities (constantly being a failure at fitting in, etc), and so any further failure is instantly an overflow - similar to those who already have a bunch of stress on their mind tend to have very short tempers - their "bucket is full" in a manner of speak.


That's the terror of failure hitting him, triggering the "fight or flight" base reaction. He feels threatened by a looming (or recently past) possible failure. What it feels like when it happens to me is like a bomb went off and I just have to protect myself and try to redirect the fallout somewhere that it can't hurt me - thus the blame shift. It's a coping mechanism to catch something that gets triggered way deeper than can be stopped before it goes off.


It's totally natural for you to react that way. Unfortunately due to AS it is also totally natural for him to react with mitigating reasons for his actions. Just like anyone who is accused of something will explain why they did what they did - it's just that in these cases the reasons don't make any sense to you so they seem like "cop outs" or veiled chains of excuses.


AS can make it easy to lie to yourself or generate a "different reality" before you even communicate the thought. Therefore since he personally believes what he's saying is the truth it comes across as scarily sincere, and would probably even pass a polygraph (not that those are hard to beat, anyway). But I usually don't notice that I've lied to myself or "fabricated reality" until someone points it out to me in a way that doesn't trigger my defenses. Often, my defenses do get triggered and the other person has to be patient enough to let me cool off before I can be introspective enough to see that I lied to myself and thus to them as well. Now that my wife has gone through that with me enough times (10 or 20 or more) I can sort of catch myself before I tell a "true lie". Of course it makes me a little slower at communication and a little more lost in thought while I'm reviewing my thoughts to make sure it fits actual reality before I believe it and say it.


Yes, I'd probably describe it as a compulsion, but a very strong one - that's why I call it a reflex most of the places I referred to it - it's really very involuntary. It is very hard to predict exactly what the right wording(s) could be as every AS afflicted person can be a bit different, but for me it helps if the complaint dos not include any phrases like "I wish" or any other provocation to action. Saying "I wish" to an Aspie is sort of the same as directly asking them to do something about it, they can't quite comprehend that a "wish" is just a feeling and they take it more like a command, at least that's how I'd describe my own response to it. And if you "wish" for something they can't provide it just frustrates them and can even trigger the whole failure thing, since to them it technically is a failure even if it's not something they could ever reasonably expect to be able to do/solve/fix. I am not really sure how to communicate a the feeling of longing for something or how to complain about a problem without it sounding like a request or command to an Aspie, my wife and I are still working on that one. All that has helped so far is my trying to cope with the reflexes and quell them so they don't drive me to action, or frustrate me if no action is possible - when I'm awake and alert I can mostly do well with that effort, but if I'm tired (just got up, or been a long day) then it's nearly impossible.

No problem, I'm very glad all my ramblings actually were useful or comprehensible at all, and at least some people thought they were good or accurate.

AS can make it easy to lie to yourself or generate a "different reality" before you even communicate the thought. Therefore since he personally believes what he's saying is the truth it comes across as scarily sincere, and would probably even pass a polygraph (not that those are hard to beat, anyway). But I usually don't notice that I've lied to myself or "fabricated reality" until someone points it out to me in a way that doesn't trigger my defenses. Often, my defenses do get triggered and the other person has to be patient enough to let me cool off before I can be introspective enough to see that I lied to myself and thus to them as well. Now that my wife has gone through that with me enough times (10 or 20 or more) I can sort of catch myself before I tell a "true lie". Of course it makes me a little slower at communication and a little more lost in thought while I'm reviewing my thoughts to make sure it fits actual reality before I believe it and say it.[/quote]

I didn't realize compulsive lying was part of As diagnosis. Interesting. Are you lying now?

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

You are so insightful. I read your responses to my husband, who acknowledged you had described how he feels and what is happenning to him internally. Thank you so much -- I am finally beginning to understand how he operates and how I can change my approach. I have another question. You said:

"All that has helped so far is my trying to cope with the reflexes and quell them so they don't drive me to action, or frustrate me if no action is possible - when I'm awake and alert I can mostly do well with that effort, but if I'm tired (just got up, or been a long day) then it's nearly impossible."

I have noticed that when things spin out of control, they do so in at least threes, but now I'm thinking it's just in batches based on how tired or stressed he is. Something else I noticed is that sometimes he seems completely out of touch with reality, like he's just not there. Sometimes I think if he gets into a car accident because he sped through a red light, he would look at the evidence -- the crashed car-- and still believe it didn't happen because in his calculation it shouldn't have happened. It's scary because it's like he just doesn't get the reality. What do you think?

Thanks again!

Just like any deep brain function issue, you can't apply proper reactions if the reactions are already done for you. You can't stifle a sneeze without making at least a little noise, or completely stop your leg from moving when the doctor hits your reflex point, or not squint a little if someone suddenly turns on bright lights. All you can do is try to redirect the reaction, and at least the concept of blaming a brain malfunction is better than blaming external entities like people or situational causes. I didn't say he should broadcast "it's not my fault, my brain is broken" or use it as an excuse, but just that it may be a coping or soothing method that could help him within his own thought process. And I only suggested it because it helps me deal with failure and hide the fact that I failed from myself which allows me to admit it to others more quickly.


I never exactly said it was a good idea, I was just tossing out possible coping mechanisms. If someone can't handle failing then wouldn't it be helpful to help them train themselves to handle it better, in a way that works for them, without causing more problems? Does AA not train alcoholics to believe they will die if they drink, so that they can better quell the urge to drink by using the brains self-preservation reflexes against itself? I don't much agree with that either, as far as it being "good idea", but it seems to work pretty well and I can't argue with results. It's only those who don't fully embrace the belief that drinking will kill them who "fall off the wagon" and ironically usually die earlier than would otherwise be normal, because they went back to drinking.


It's not like he's an idiot and doesn't already know that his behavior is unacceptable, and if he's anything like me, I doubt he just doesn't bother to change his behavior. He just can't figure out how. Reminding him of how unacceptable it is only serves to make his self-loathing even worse, and he'll end up somewhere near giving up rather than continuing to try. You sound like one of those Dr. Phil types who turn everything in to a matter of just not trying hard enough. You can't run a marathon no matter how hard you try or how much you want to if your legs are paralyzed - same with neurological paralysis like AS blocking normal reactions and emotions, if you can't figure out why you do what you do then you can't very well stop it, can you? But you might be able to get a wheelchair and still participate in the marathon as best you can and still feel good about yourself, and that's all I was trying to offer was something akin to a mental wheelchair or crutch that could be of some assistance.

Obviously, it makes sense that he should just "knock it off" and stop doing that stuff. But obviously that doesn't work for whatever reason (I just propose it's a reason he actually can't help) so it's time to try something else. Which, in fact, was exactly what she was requesting. The answer is more understanding and accommodating support (not "enabling", in this case, like it may be with other psychiatric maladies) from those around him who are capable of such, in order to help him feel better about the problem and eventually be "out of the hole" and maybe be able to handle much of it himself without it feeling so overwhelmed and hopeless.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/overvi ... iteria.htm