OTRS/CP and www.faaas.org

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You mean family rather than siblings, correct?

I'm glad you are reconsidering bluntly informing them of anything. I think it's better to listen first and see where they are.

Most likely, yes. However, this may not be something she regrets. Again, I think it's best to tread gently until you understand how she feels and what she wants.

I imagine you're correct about this. However, you might be surprised upon learning more about how they really see you.

I saw myself much more negatively than how my children were actually apparently experiencing me. And what our families need most, I believe, isn't information. It's us, all of us, there with them looking to fully enjoy and support them. Not an easy thing. But no information can ever take the place of really connecting to who they are.

I hope that helps. I am on essentially the same page as Adamantium on this, I think, just different words I am using to explain myself.

Everything that happens in a family has an effect on the family.

But the question is, is there some exceptional thing about what happens in our family that makes it worse because of my autism? I don't think so. I am an individual first. Am I a worse dad for not immediately realizing that my wife was tacitly asking for a particular response in a given situation?

Worse than who and what, exactly? Utopia?

Sure, if I was the magic sky father who could make all wishes come true, then I would be able to make all my family's wishes come true--but:

Am I worse than the dad diagonally across the block who hits his wife and kids because he believes in "discipline first?"

Am I worse than the dad a couple of houses down on this side of the block who knew what his wife and kids needed, but was more in touch with what he needed from between the legs of the girls at the office and now his wife and kids live in a new house a few blocks away?

Or the dad around the corner who is more in touch with Jack Daniels and Jim Beam than with his wife and kids.

Those guys are all neurotypical... does that make them better?



It's hard to find 100% certainty about anything in this life. I am confident that I have been, at least, an "OK" dead. Sometimes a very good dad. Sometimes I screw up. My understanding is that this variability is pretty much part of the human condition.

Is obsessing over the possibility that a defect in my nature that I can do little about is somehow harmful to my family a worthwhile pursuit? Or might it be that I would be better off putting that focus onto the people in my family and their real needs right now?

I wonder if you are dwelling on this stuff because you think it will help your family, or because you think it excuses things you wish could have been different, or because it's easier to look at this stuff than the people you have a relationship with? Will framing your relationships in the terms of OTRS help you have a better relationship with your family? If so, then by all means do that with them--otherwise, I suspect this is not a productive activity.

How is your Family? How are you relating to them these days?

OTRS is just the newest incarnation of CADD (Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder). It is not a valid diagnostic category because there has never been a published paper on it in a peer reviewed journal.

Yes, "family" not "siblings" . I wonder if I had been thinking of my late brother when I wrote that????

I really appreciate your insights....they help to clarify what's been floating around in my head...Thanks. You sound 100% right to me.

Hi Adamantium.

You keep on using the word "worse" for some reason. I don't believe I ever used that term or found it used the way you have in any conversations here or elsewhere. Maybe you're a "glass half empty" kind of guy? I'm (unfortunately for me sometimes) a "glass half full" kind of person....even though it leads to all sorts of vulnerabilities.

I see the information presented by OTRS/CP as a tool to be used, (which may or may not be suitable for use by everyone apparently), but strictly as information to be used (or ignored) by each individual. You seem to see it as harsh criticism.

But I (again and again) see it in the way you state near the top of your previous post: "Everything that happens in a family has an effect on the family." I see the information in OTRS/CP as a tool for understanding this. I've already stated I only see a 75%/25% "fit" (75% "yes" or possibly and 25% "no" or not likely) and you may see no "fit" at all (0% "yes" and 100% "no") in your family situation....no one is saying you're somehow "worse" because of this information. I'm personally sure you're not "worse" in any way.

You say (?): "I wonder if you are dwelling on this stuff.........." To this I say: What I dwell on has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread. What you or I define "dwell" as can be as different as the sun and the moon, so I'll leave this out of any further discussion, OK?

You ask: "How is your Family? How are you relating to them these days?" Nice of you to ask, thank you. I'd say better and better every day. Being diagnosed at age 69 is quite enlightening. My family is (I hope) slowly becoming accustomed to the fact, which is why I saw OTRS/CP as a tool for further understanding, hopefully for my family and for others. Other people and other families, with perhaps a different "life situation" than me/mine may not find this information useful.

Thanks for your input.

Hi Jono. Thanks for stopping in.

Does it appear to you that OTRS/CP as presented is 100% the same as the "CADD (Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder)" you mention? That would be quite interesting. Any further information you could supply will be greatly appreciated.

Additionally you say: "It is not a valid diagnostic category because there has never been a published paper on it in a peer reviewed journal." Are you speaking of both subjects or just inferring one from the other? Again, any facts you can bring to bear on the subject will be appreciated.

But what you say also brings up a (to me) very interesting point. I find it hard/impossible to relate to depending on a "peer reviewed journal" for information about myself. I note younger members (older also?) of this forum seem to explain/define themselves by using medical terms/opinions given to them by members of the medical profession, describing their various propensities. Because I grew up in the '40s and '50s there was no one to define me so I (and others of or near my age) defined myself. Whether one of my thoughts or ideas ever was approved by a "peer reviewed journal" has absolutely no meaning for me and indeed seems somewhat ludicrous. But (please correct me if I'm wrong) this seems to be 100% apposed to the way this is viewed by the "socially supported" youth today. I know this isn't directly in the purpose of "this" thread, but it would be interesting if someone created such a thread...I only engage because of your use of odd (to me) terms.

Thanks much for your input.

This just seems so weird and incomprehensible to me, I wonder if we are even looking at the same website.
The language used to describe AS/NT relationships states that such relationships are traumatic and induce a state like PTSD that is different than most traumas because "the trauma is unrelenting"

The FAAS page declares that such relationships are comparable with torture and domestic abuse. They are described as abusive, restricting and non nurturing relationships that impair the physical and mental health of the people in them.

This characterization is explicitly contrasted with "positive relationships" that provide physical and mental health benefits. This comparison is unambiguous: the NT/AS relationship is worse than beneficial NT/NT relationships and equivalent to worst kinds of trauma a person can experience.

Yet you think I am somehow "interpreting" something neutral as negative. I find this bizarre and I don't understand your perspective on this at all.

It is harsh criticism. It declares the emotional responses of people with AS as so inadequate that exposure to them is as damaging as torture. How do you think this information will be useful? What can be usefully accomplished by sharing this idea? I can't imagine what you mean when you say that.

It will help the people in your family to consider you as totally incapable of giving anything, a relationship with you as one of being a caretaker for an abusive person? I don't see how that works unless you really are an abusive person. Is being around you like being tortured??? I really don't see where you are coming from.

It seems to me that the people at FAAS and the other OTRS site are saying that I am worse, not just a little, but much, much worse: a relationship with me is likely to be like torture and result in lasting psychological damage. I am an ongoing source of trauma, according to them--they say my NT spouse will be "a caregiver only." They say that I will have only myself as a focus, never my wife or her needs. They say that she will be "subjected to periods of paranoia, thus becoming the focal point for such negative behaviour."

I don't think it's a mark of some pessimistic turn of mind that makes this seem negative to me.


Earlier in the thread, you described yourself as spending a lot of time thinking about this, that was the source of my speculation. I apologize if that made you uncomfortable.

I really don't understand your perspective on this at all. I find myself wondering if you are a kind of masochist and are inviting the other people in your life to reconsider you in the most negative light possible in order to create an opportunity to feel pain? I know that sounds crazy, but so do most of the explanations I can think of for someone finding the OTRS concept helpful, unless that person is an NT person married to an autistic person and wants to end the relationship.


I am glad to hear you are all doing well, but then I really don't understand at all. If you are not an ongoing source of trauma to your family, how is this going to help them?
If you are an ongoing source of trauma to them, how is going to help to say, "nothing to be done about this, my AS means I can't do any better"--Karen Rodman is quite clear: the AS person is incapable of change, so the traumatized NT person can only get out or go on suffering, but now with knowledge about their torture-like situation.

In Rodman's article "Counselling for neurotypical spouses" she says "Uninformed NT carers of those with AS are/were sucked into a caring-giving role by the AS person, to be used as a 'prompt director:' an AS ignorant replacement for their primary caregiver; their mother." There are elements in this scheme that I recognize, but in a weirdly distorted way with everything cast in the most negative light possible. I don't consider my wife my "carer." for example. I do recognize that she supports me in some things and that I could not manage those things without her--but this is true of many relationships between people with different strengths. I reject the language which describes AS people only as a liability, as having nothing to bring and providing no support to their spouses. I reject the idea that my wife is a replacement for my mother and I am an infantile parasite, depending on "AS ignorant" dupes to enable my dependent life. I am a complicated human being with many good and bad characteristics. I have a lot to give and I give freely.

I agree with Jono, OTRS is CADD by another name.

I am trying to imagine how the OTRS idea would be helpful and I really can't do it.

I think Adamantium, that you're taking this all too personally.

You say: " They say that I will have only myself as a focus, never my wife or her needs." when actually they don't mention you at all...you're reading this into their statements.

Let me ask you this (if you don't mind me being "personal"): If you consider yourself an aspie, where do you put yourself on the "scale?" Would you say you're high functioning? Very high functioning? Do you believe there are others who may not be? Would you say these hypothetical "others" might have a tougher time in life? And perhaps their families? This thread was NOT aimed specifically at you, only the general population, and perhaps those who may benefit more than yourself and your family. Why not try to see it from other's perspective, forget about yourself, and let others make up their own minds? Or perhaps just say this may not be a cup of tea for high functioning aspies and their unaffected families?

Stop trying to put labels on everyone. Everyone can write their own labels: Example: When did I say I was an "an ongoing source of trauma to your (my) family"? Yet you insist on saying this after I clearly stated I was only a 75% match. This is not about you or me...it's only general information. Again I say you're taking this all too personally (?????). Perhaps think about others and their needs instead of only your fortunate self.

You say: "I find myself wondering if you are a kind of masochist and are inviting the other people in your life to reconsider you in the most negative light possible in order to create an opportunity to feel pain?"
Now you see I would have never thought such a thing about myself or anyone else....this comes from inside YOU. It seems from your statements you may relate closely to this idea.

And so far as your concern: "Earlier in the thread, you described yourself as spending a lot of time thinking about this, that was the source of my speculation. I apologize if that made you uncomfortable." I assure you there is absolutely nothing you could possibly say that would make me feel uncomfortable. Speculate all you wish...in any case it more defines the "speculator" than the "speculatee."

As far as agreeing with Jono, and you have familiarity with the issue/terms perhaps you can help answer the questions I posed to him/her?

I appreciate your valuable input. I'm sure it will help others define themselves, and their own personal and unique family situations, as well.

@zenden, I think you're couragious wanting to talk about this with your family!
Good for you, when my father died we had still never had found out why or what was going on with him.

Right, for a bit of history on this, the idea was originally coined as the term "Mirror Syndrome" by Karen Rodman of FAAAS as a concept that apparently, an NT merely living with someone with Asperger Syndrome causes mental health problems in the NT. After autism self-advocates objected to the idea, the name was changed to the Cassandra Phenomenon and then was later developed into a full "disorder" called CADD or (Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder) by Maxine Aston. The trouble is, Maxine Aston has never published a single peer-reviewed article on this so-called "disorder" and it has only been referenced in her books. Just like in all other fields of science, new ideas in psychology and psychiatry have to be peer-reviewed in order for it to be accepted and this wasn't. It later developed to the point where there were even suggestions of using this made-up disorder to discriminate against AS people in matrimonial and custody law. There was a danger that AS people could be deprived of custody of their children in any event of divorce simply due to a diagnosis of AS and not by weighing the parenting abilities of each parent due to the so-called CADD, even though it was never proven to be a clinical disorder. There was even a matrimonial law article written by family lawyer, Sheila Jennings Linehan, that suggested that in the event of abuse and domestic violence, the perpetrator must always be assumed to be the partner with AS, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. You can imagine how autism self-advocates felt about that, so the whole thing boiled over in 2009 when ASAN launched a campaign against FAAAS and ASPIA over the CADD concept. Fortunately ASPIA responded fairly quickly and they were taken off the target list of the campaign but they continued it against FAAAS until Tony Attwood himself wrote his reply saying that he doesn't believe that parents should be deprived of custody simply due to a diagnosis of AS that the abilities of both parents should be assessed. After this campaign was over, the CADD concept then morphed into OTRS concept, as it's called by FAAAS which is really just the same thing but with a change of name while Masxine Aston changed the name to AfDD (Affective Deprivation Disorder), now defined as a "relational disorder" but unfortunately is still not a concept that is peer-reviewed. So yes, OTRS is still exactly the same thing as CADD.



It's not about how you identify yourself. The fact is that there's an article on the FAAAS website that tries advocate for the inclusion of OTRS in the DSM V. The problem is, it cannot be included in the DSM until it is recognised by the psychiatric community and it cannot be recognised by the psychiatric community until the idea is peer-reviewed. The only references you'll ever get on OTRS and CADD is in popular books, either written by FAAAS or by Maxine Aston. The easiest way to recognise pseudoscience is when the ideas get published in popular level books before they get published in peer-reviewed journals.

Actually, it's not him taking it personally. That exact quote, word for word, is from an article on "theneurotypical" site that you linked to earlier.

I relate better with my family than most people might expect. But I avoid certain family members who can be grating and/or downright toxic and am careful how much exposure I get to that toxicity.

I think there could be instances when an NT/AS relationship could be toxic- but there are a lot of NT/NT relationships that are toxic. Whoop de do. I refuse to believe that in every instance it's bad news for an NT to be paired up with someone with AS. My husband's NT and we have been married for 20 years. He has his oddities and annoying habits and I know I certainly have mine. He puts up with me- he knows I'm "different'- but I've not gone to the trouble to explain that the way that I am has a name. The same goes for my son, who is also NT. Knowledge of me being HFA is on a need to know basis, and most people simply don't need to know.

I have a good relationship with my son, and I think I've been at least an adequate mother. He's 23, potty trained, literate and employed (inside joke there.) He is highly intelligent, a college graduate, and doing well for himself- (the kid makes more money than I do) and as he grew up he taught me a lot about navigating in the world of the "normals-" and I'm thankful for that experience.

Oddly enough, I may have consciously decided against marriage or having a child had I known I was HFA at a younger age. I was diagnosed at age 35, when my son was 13, and I'd been married (to husband#2, for my sanity's sake I divorced #1 as that marriage was a huge mistake) for almost 10 years.

All I can say is that there are individual variances in how well we can work in certain relationships with certain people. Most people drive me completely batshit if I have to tolerate them in more than tiny doses, but my husband, my son and my Dad- all NTs- I can be around them all the time and be comfortable with them.

Last edited by elysian1969 on 25 Mar 2015, 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's possible! It wouldn't be the first time.


What I see is a lot of generalized statements about what autistic people are like and how they impact neurotypical people when they are in relationships.

Is this true for some? No doubt. But their language tends to make it out as the inevitable result of such a relationship. That's not my choice, but the language they use. Maybe I could interpret it more generously and maybe I am having a problem with this kind of communication.

But here's a quote from the PDF brochure on OTRS currently available from FAAS at http://faaas.org/research-materials/bro ... -brochure/


That's not a nuanced statement about a widely variable population. That's a sweeping generalization.


My understanding is that high vs. low functioning technically refers to IQ and mine is relatively high. I am guessing that you mean how well do I function in different settings and that's a bit of a mixed picture. But I don't have a problem being emotionally expressive or affectionate, if that's part of what you are asking. I do have some problems understanding others and I work very hard to compensate for that with my family.

Seeing it from the other's perspective may be an area where I can have difficulty. Being in a relationship certainly means working very hard at that! But you asked questions about this and I had an opinion, sorry if it doesn't seem germane to you.

I can tell you that FAAS has in the past lobbied the courts in Massachusetts to always presume that an autistic parent is incompetent and deny parental rights in the event of a divorce in an NT/AS relationship, so I think they have a pretty bad track record.

I don't think I am doing that.

That's not my language, that's taken directly from the FAAS leader's description and I seriously doubt that it fits you, because you seem to care about your family a lot. That's why it's hard for me to see how this material would be helpful to them... but I am probably not being imaginative enough.
Well, I certainly did not intend to be a lucky jerk, wallowing in my good fortune and ignoring the plight of others. If you do have the problems that they outline and have traumatized your family, then I am very sorry for you and for them and I certainly don't mean to antagonize you by proclaiming my good fortune.

I just don't want to accept the idea that autistic people "by definition" are unable to support their "caregiver" partners.



Sure. You asked Jono: "Does it appear to you that OTRS/CP as presented is 100% the same as the "CADD (Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder)" you mention? That would be quite interesting. Any further information you could supply will be greatly appreciated."

On the FAAS page (http://faaas.org/otrscp/) there is a heading and language that make it clear that CADD and OTRS are 100% the same thing.
The heading is: "Rationale for “Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome (OTRS) aka (Cassandra Phenomenon)”
And the identification in the text is in this language:
" This is the case for (OTRS/CP) Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome, which was originally popularized as “Cassandra phenomenon.”"

At least according to FAAS the terms are 100% the same. OTRS is the more recent version, part of a failed attempt to make it "official" in the DSM 5.

I don't know if my input has any value! Maybe I am a socially myopic narrow minded, over privileged, high functioning lucky bastard who can't see that everything isn't always about him and other people really need to have their relationships defined by Karen Rodman and Maxine Aston. But I mean well.

I don't need anyone to tell me about my relationships, especially a couple of arrogant and probably short-sighted NTs who believe that they can generalize about everyone on the spectrum.

You forgot to explain what this is even about. Some people won't follow random, unexplained links because it could be spam/trolling.

A condensed version extracted from the FAAS page:


The longer version would include: