Things I Have Learned About Being a Man.

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Good point. There's a difference between discussing things and whining. No one likes to be subjected to whining from either gender. It would be great if we could agree on a concrete definition of what constitutes "whining" and confine whiney posts to the Haven.

Okay here’s the problem:

This is a very sexist and damaging attitude to have, and you’re right, it is a societal condition. Why should my emotions be treated differently than those of a woman? There is a reasonable limit for everyone on they deal with and show their emotions in public but I don’t see that as being any different for anyone regardless of their sex.

I believe in equality and justice for all, WITHOUT EXCEPTION. The feelings of a man are just as important as those of a woman and should be given the same consideration, no more, no less. I have never understood the masculine feminine thing in society, I don’t see the difference, and we are more alike than we are different. I’ve seen in certain French cultures where this is taken to the extreme. Where French women are expected to behave emotionally irrationally and unacceptable emotional outbursts are routinely tolerated.

I call BS on this societal standard that men have no rights to their feelings and I call BS on you for perpetuating this crap. I’m a primate, therefore, I’m an emotional and social organism. Sometimes, I’m an emotional train wreck, and you know what? I’ve suffered through enough in my life that I’ve earned that right along with everyone else.


Edit: Sorry about the rant. When I see inequity my brain explodes.

^ We all have our ideas of how the world should be, and change that we are willing to campaign for. But I thought this discussion was for things that we've learned about being a man. Believing things should be a certain way is different from how you've learned it actually is.

As a man, I've learned that life is like Fnord says: "Manliness does exclude emotionalism, at least in public. That's a societal condition, not just my personal opinion." Yes we could debate whether life should be this way or not, but it doesn't change the lessons we've learned, nor the purpose of this thread.

I'm sorry. Don't mind me, please continue.

"Don't bother me with your sexism drivel; I'm trying to have a conversation where sexism is apparent"

"Society" perpetuates this crap. I am merely reporting it. It took me over literally decades to finally accept it as fact that "Society" expects men to express their emotions privately, and to just do the things that need to be done without complaint.

Sure, it makes more sense to be treated equally - to be allowed to cry, complain, shout, and be sad without judgement. Enlightened people everywhere have been asserting this ideal behavior for a long time; but how many truly enlightened people do you know? It serves society to keep men strong and silent, and to reject the men who are weak and the whiny, so the "Strong and Silent" man will always be in demand, while the "Weak and Whiny" man will be cast aside. That is what I've learned in nearly sixty years of life.

If to "Man Up" means to stop complaining and get the work done (and get paid for doing it), then I'm all for it.

If you don't like it, then do something to change it; only expect your efforts to be like holding back the tide. You can't be everywhere, and the tide comes in whether you like it or not.

There are a lot of double standards that you just have to live with,

I've seen some abusive women say "well you're a man, you should be able to handle me yelling at you and hitting you" to other people.
An Australian female politician dismissed a male politician ,saying that he was mansplaining, sexist of course but I don't think anything was done.
If a woman walks into a conversation held by men that's perfectly fine but if a man wanders into a female forum thread it's all "you're interrupting WOMEN while they are talking!!"j

If a man told a woman to see her way out of a male conversation all hell would break loose.

Yeah, I know ... but let's not devolve this thread into another misogynist rant, because it is society - consisting of both women and men - that imposes these roles.

But again, if to "Man Up" means being responsible, industrious, accountable, and honest with oneself and with others, then I'm all for it.

The "Strong and Silent" part does get old, though ... sometimes I'd like to scream like bloody murder just to get it out of my system, without getting tasered and hauled in for a psych eval.

As strong is the opposite of weak, this statement also presents "silent" as the opposite of "whiny".
There are, however, many ways of speaking out without being whiny.

My position on this is that I, for years, have been of the opinion that it was good and healthy to be emotional, even as a man. I was also raised my a single mother, with very, I guess feminine views on many things. I was never anything close to effeminate, but leaned that way in my mind.

I'm 38, quite possibly going for a divorce, sick, and living at my parents house now, with no sense of direction. These, of course, are my experiences. I feel the template that Fnord layed out is very much the sorts of things that have been my problems. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it's easy to manipulate excuses to the point where they no longer appear to be excuses. Then we comfort ourselves with them.

I know the way I've lived hasn't worked, and the last thing I need in my life, and I'm sure many in theirs, is more comfort. Sometimes, as men, we need to be punched in the f*****g mouth. It hurts but it's gonna get your head into the fight so you don't keep getting you ass kicked.

I, for one, appreciated the view of a man who's been through life and experienced my struggles years before I ever did and came out the other side alive. The one lesson I'm trying very hard to learn in of at this point is to shut the f**k up and listen to people who know better.

Space_Intentional wasn't so much directed at you as a debatable point, just merely the counter as to why maybe some of us around here need this sort of understanding. It's not friggin the exact way every single thing is always, but a good starting point for anyone feeling this shortcoming.

Thank you Fnord.

I feel there are better ways to kick someone's ass than actually kicking someone's ass.

The only mindsets where I am capable, where I will look after myself, are ones where I see myself as worthwhile. Ass-kicking doesn't make me see myself that way ever.

The late 60's are over dude. Men can't be men anymore without being fired, loss of community, social isolation,etc.

Maybe we have different definitions of what kicking one's own ass means. The one I think you are talking about is not how I'd mean it. I take what you're saying as the beating yourself over the head with feelings of self-hatred, worthlessness, helplessness, maybe feeling sorry for one's self, etc. At least that's the sorts of things I do in that state that I think you're talking about. Though, I apologize if I interpret incorrectly.

What I more meant in reference to Fnord's OP, was the wake up call, get up and move or you're gonna die type thing. Urgency. Shock of self-awareness. The "hard look in the mirror". It;s more about being honest with myself than it is putting myself down, though sometimes those lines do blur slightly.

I'm also dealing with alot of s**t right now, and my emotions are so erratic and volatile that that sort of self motivation feels awesome one minute, and soul crushing the next, then maybe a solid panic attack or two.

I just thought the words, to me, were a little inspirational and I appreciated it. That's all. Maybe that sort of thing isn't for everyone. The whole, pull yourself up from the bootstraps thing. I hate/hated that for just about all my life, but I'm at a crossroads where it's literally sink or swim with my desire to live any longer, searching for where s**t went wrong in my life. Maybe time for some new perspectives.

I will say if I read this a few weeks ago I'd have been saying almost exactly what Space_Intenional said. But s**t's f****d right now.

Sorry for the rant. No one cares, that's right. I guess I missed the point so far

Life is a balancing act. Sitting around wallowing in self-pity doesn't get you anywhere, but attempting to robot your way through life isn't healthy, either.

Yes.

Learning job skills is one thing; learning creative skills that allow you to express yourself is another; and learning social skills well enough to communicate your creativity is (to me) the pinnacle of learning!

Too bad there are so many trolls around, as well as people who seem to get hurt no matter what you say to them.