Some form of immortality?

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Elusion was meant for dodging, sidestepping.
As a statistical fact, and as general climate of culture, people don't believe in any form of immortality, not even within traditional and not traditional religions, and they are scared to death of... death. The only solution is not to think of it by way of various means, avoiding funeral parlours, and above all staying at the maximum distance from the terminally ill. if they are not obliged by kinship duties. The word "terminal" is itself an euphemism for mortal, very ugly euphemism.
In fiction people die, but there is no fiction about dying . Some exception: The Death of Ivan Illich by Tolstoi, in the movies To live, by the great Kurosawa. Wit, by Mike Nichols. The only great director (French) whose constant theme is, in his movies, death is Bernard Tavernier.

paolo wrote:

is it a good book?......

paolo wrote:

ya....look at all of the products sold to put people in denial about "death & aging"......you know use this - use that - to create the illusion of looking young.....therefore far....far...away from the "reaper".

But I am now losing the thread of this thread...."immortality"....

are we discussing whether immortality is good.....something that should be valued - or coveted?...Or is it only the Mozarts, the Kings, Queens, movie stars....sports heros....etc....that will attain "immortality"......

but are we talking about the other: immortality.....

the Vampire kind that Anne Rice wrote about in the Vampire Chronicles.....etc.....
or is it....

the immortality that certain "fictional heros"......had.....

So I guess there are two kinds of immortality - ?
or am I hopelessly entangled in my faulty logic?

The Death of Ivan Illich: it's not "entertaining", but it's one of the best things Tolstoi ever wrote; it's a great book, a little masterpiece.
The search for immortality is a way to fight death. But looking to leave "traces" of your personality is a wrong way to fight death. Personally I wouldn't give a damn for how many people will come to my funerals, nor for having left some posthumous memory. Immortality for me would be to have had, during my mortal life, some connection with the whole. Not that I think I succeded.

Here is, anyway T.S.Eliot perspective, from one of his “Four Quartets” (East Coker)

O dark dark dark. They all go into the dark,
The vacant interstellar spaces, the vacant into the vacant,
The captains, merchant bankers, eminent men of letters,
The generous patrons of art, the statesmen and the rulers,
Distinguished civil servants, chairmen of many committees,
Industrial lords and petty contractors, all go into the dark,
And dark the Sun and Moon, and the Almanach de Gotha
And the Stock Exchange Gazette, the Directory of Directors,
And cold the sense and lost the motive of action.
And we all go with them, into the silent funeral,
Nobody's funeral, for there is no one to bury.

The idea, here, is that no human enterprise, no matter how much reputation or fame gives us, is worthwhile pursuing in terms of celebrity. Personally I don’t believe that anything of me, except separated atoms or molecules, will remain after my death. That does not mean that somehow I would not like to do something enduring for its “connection with the whole”.

Of course there are many other perspectives practiced. Faith in the immortality of the soul, whatever a “soul” means, reincarnation, having some monuments dedicated after the end (or even before) and so on. I could not express what I want to say better than Emily Dickinson did in the few verses quoted before-

What the hell you want with immortality?

The only consolation to (wordly) life it that it ends. why would anyone want more of this crap?

I like the idea of leaving nothing behind, no kids, no fame, no my name in history. Just anonymity.....aah.

Paolo, may I ask you a question. What is the meaning to having Pheonix- a bird that burns itself and is reborn from the ashes- posted under your username?

I don't know what this words after the name mean they are a business of WP.

That's an incidental, a WP-conferred title (names of birds & other creatures), based on number of posts. At 1,000, one can select custom rank.
However, if one does not chose a new rank at that point, one retains the previous pre-set title, thus the "phoenix". Also, it's possible that paolo picked "phoenix" as his custom rank anyway-am not sure.


Have no belief in anything of me beyond undifferentiated molecules existing posthumously, save other people's recollections of "the me that was" (that they knew of).

Read Jessica Mitford's "The American Way of Death", which cemented even more strongly my wish to be disposed of (once I'm dead-not before !) with as little fuss, expense, or artifice as possible.

I draw & I write-and hope these are appreciated during my life (when I can enjoy the positive feedback), but if they are only "discovered" (by larger world) after I'm gone, that's how it goes sometimes, alas. Would prefer to be known (no, not famous, though) in my lifetime, for what I like to do & am talented at, but am uncomfortable with the bright harsh glare of the marketplace scrutinizing my product (doodled designs & wordcraft)-and my personality.

Guess I don't hold out much hope for immortality in any form. To the extent my context is decipherable while I'm alive, it'll be that much more distorted & impenetrable once I'm dead.

Your stone monument will not last. These are temporary things, easily destroyed by nature and man. Build your storehouse in heaven instead of on earth.

In a sense, immortality may be found only in giving up any attempt to be personally immortal. So no stake to be put on personal fame.

When the world is remade at the return of Christ, so too will I be remade, immortal. The life eternal promised to all thosre who believe.

My name is Ozymandias! King of Kings!
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

I love this topic!

Yes, I think about this a lot. Personally I'm a poet, a song writer, and an artist. I hope to be a novelist, but have so far produced -3.5 things worth mentioning. I think in some ways we are the unfortunates, as other organisms can enjoy their existence with a purity of mind and purpose that we can never hope to obtain. Furthermore, the time we waste in worrying about mortality can amount to a large proportion of our lives, in which we could have experienced new sensations, acquired learning, or experienced emotions. In some way, the more we worry about mortality, the more mortal we become, as we bring our death closer without experiencing new facets of life. But I guess philosophizing about mortality is a learning experience in itself.

I'm probably not doing justice to this topic as I had a late night at a theatre apprenticeship thing and my brain is too tired to function properly. I might finish up, and maybe post more at a later date.

Although there is no true way for an individual to achieve immortality, I think there is a lot of comfort in having children because you do pass your genes onto them (50% of your genes anyway) and (hopefully not delving too deeply into the nature vs. nurture argument in an unrelated topic) in bringing children up, you are implanting in them so many of your unique personality quirks and individual experiences. Although I am personally against the theory that a person is born with a blank slate for a mind, I do think (apart from the basic "soul" or "personality" - it's hard to discuss this without sounding wishy washy) that much of a persons self is made up from what they learn from people around them as they grow.

So I guess children can be like a blank canvas for an artist, or manuscript for a song writer. A medium on which to transcribe yourself, but never truly you as it retains it's own original characteristics underneath your additions.

Or is the post submitting you?

I'm Mortal (by this poster, September 25, 2008)

Could I live in the heart you leave behind?
And when you are gone you will be in mine!

Next place to land is on this line...
And when you read I am in your mind...

Then gone again without a sign!
To live forever is hard to find.

I wouldn't worry about all of this to much because to my way of thinking those of us on the spectrum are proably far far closer to being true immortals than anybody else on this planet. I think some of us might actually make it. I think it's supposed to happen and those of us moving ahead, as we are, happen to closer towards the front of the pack of what over time will be something or somebodies that are not bound by time.

Everything that is born must one day die, but that's not to say we can't achieve immortality as human beings. Through our works, our deeds, and our words. Through the kind of people we were while alive, through the ways in which we touched the lives of others.

Why would anyone want to live forever, anyway? It would be a curse.