AS mens silence in regard to relationships with NT women

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are you referring to this?

http://www.faaas.org/doc.php?6,360

looks like this one has got constructive discussions going on.

http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/showthr ... &pid=83691

Hell, it's not about men and women. I've spent my entire life being misunderstood, misinterpreted, misrepresented and misdirected. Gender really doesn't get a look in, except that I (male, aspie) find it easier to get along with a single co-respondent and - on average - it's easier if that single co-respondent is female.

No, I don't understand why. Any more than any of the hundred thousand or so people who've found their lives working more easily by ignoring me understand why that is.

[Too many posts for me to read through them all, at least right now. - Edit: I've read them now... well worth it.]

I was married 9 years (three kids). I'm now in another long-term (hopefully ) commited relationship.

I believe we don't speak out for several reasons... 1) We (that is I, and I would imagine many others) are completely bewildered where it goes wrong. (And Aspies are probably more likely to place blame on specifics in a relationship). 2) We (again, I) often have no clue what advice to give others to prevent it from happening. 3) I also think that Aspies tend to look at things more objectively, so we don't "b***h". I haven't been doing much foruming lately, but even when the divorce was fresh and I was posting a fair amount, for the most part I didn't vent or b***h, I would just reply if others' had similiar situations, and I felt I had constructive things to say.

My ex-wife and current partner are very different, yet I hear the same complaints.

The major complaints I got from my ex-wife were that I didn't want to "do" enough (like going out), I didn't talk enough, I spent too much time on the computer, I'm "always right" (like saying "Well, actually...", and in arguements), and I did not initiate sex often enough.

My current partner complains about those same things, except "doing" enough and time spent on the computer (though she has made comments about me getting "in" the computer). She also has major issues with my porn (my ex-wife did not like it, but I don't think it was a major issue).

I can only hope my suggestions can help others (since I'm not sure they help me... sleeping on the couch tonight).
Never be afraid to apologize (hard one for me!). This need not be an admission of guilt. "I'm sorry you feel that way." (I have a hard time with that, since it seems so condescending.) Just saying "I understand" can sometimes be all that's needed. In my marriage, I would either argue (if I was "right"), or just stand there and listen (and maybe say "Sorry" if I was "wrong").

Get counseling (might be wise not to wait until the first sign of trouble... For me, that's usually the fourth or fifth sign ). And try to find someone with AS/NT couples counseling experience. Often it takes a professional to say "this is the way he/she is... Deal with it." It can also take someone with experience to know ways of solving some issues that can arrive.

Be upfront early on about what AS means for you and your relationship (never finished the list, but my partner and I went through a long list of potential traits, with me explaining how each trait applies to me, if it did). Have your partner also research AS.

Begin as you mean to go on. This will seem strange, but try NOT to show your partner too much attention in the beginning, since you'll probably stop showering the other with affection sooner or later. Mostly though, try not to build destructive patterns, because Aspies have more difficulty breaking patterns than others. And stick to at least some of the good patterns when the shine wears off (like dedicating time together, or talking time).

Try not to get bogged down in facts during arguements. Arguements are rarely about the facts of the situation. As an example, your partner complains you forgot to take the trash out (AGAIN!), and you reply that the trash can isn't full yet, and she asks why that matters, and you.... STOP! Why are they worried with the trash? Are they feeling you aren't taking responsibility, maybe they're feeling you're taking advantage of them, or don't care about them/the family because you forget basic chores? Usually arguements are about feelings, so stop and ask yourself (or if you don't know, ask them) what the underlying emotions are.

Related to the last, try not to listen with a right/wrong mindset in arguements. Always assume your partner is right... But that you are right too. In other words, if they're mad at you for doing something, it's completely acceptable for them to feel you should have (especially on an emotional level), but you may be equally in the right for having done it. Going back to previous point, it's usually best not to worry too much about specifics in an arguement. Deal with the emotions first, before trying to find solutions, assuming any are even needed.

As a country song states, "My give a damn's busted." A lot of issues that get press and replayed typically involve someone whining. In my case, I don't whine. I mean, who am I going to complain to that is going to understand things from my angle? So IMO, there's not much to write about because the AS guys don't complain as much as NT women.

And if AS men did complain, they wouldn't complain as much as NT women so would just get drowned out so why bother?



ROFLMAO. So true. It's been described as I am all into the chase and when the chase is over, I'm over the relationship. As someone has already said, after I pull out all that is interesting and unknown from the other person (e.g. ewww, shiny new puzzle!), it's back to my other interests and diversions.

The best relationship? Similiar interests.

This.

Fathers tell their sons "men don't cry".

Boys are usually raised to be more 'Vulcan' than girls.

I'm not sure if it's an aspie thing, a man thing or a man thing exacerbated by being an aspie but I often have delayed emotional responses. I know delayed emotional responses are a good thing when your defending the tribe from a charging bear or woolly mammoth, but it's a definite disadvantage in interpersonal relationships. What I often get is either "He doesn't care" because I don't react instantly or "why are you bringing that up now"; saying "let me think about it a while" doesn't work either. What quickly happens is when I do respond, the response is disregarded because it's too late; the wife and people in general have clued in on this and demands instant responses and the lack of one is automatically taken as I'm agreeing to what they wants before I'm even completely sure what's being asked, so it's easier to keep quiet and "Just go with the flow". Because Aspies have a tendency toward rigidity of behavior, pretty soon we are not saying anything.

Another big handicap is the lack of fluency with "body language" this has actually happen to me numerous times;
Wife: "How's Dinner?"
Me: "Good, I like it, make it again"
Wife "Good just good, that's all I ever get is good"
WTF, how do you react to an outburst like that? I thought I was giving a compliment and she go off like I insulted her! Was I unwittingly giving off a sarcasm signal in my body language, was she really agitated over something else unrealted, PMSing or menopausal I don't have a clue so just STFU and once again she's reinforcing a rigid and undesired behaivor in me. Emotional reponses out of porportion to the percieved stimulating event freaks me out; if it occures during a conversation, the topic get moved to the "here be dragons" area of the topic map and thus avoid at all costs. If I were blind she'd know not to move every piece of furniture to a new position when she vacuumed the carpet, yet I'm supposed to know when talking about a subject or relational issue is safe or unsafe signalled by subtile body language I'm pretty much blind too. It getts pretty hard to talk about anything that's not plainly superficial when the robot is running around inside your head flapping it's arms while saying "Danger Will Robinson, Danger" for no appearent reason.


That pretty well sums it up.

'How's dinner?' translates as 'I spent ages cooking this, can't you at least give me some feedback?'. She may have already been annoyed that you said nothing, so any subsequent response had better be good! I'd be insulted if my boyfriend replied with 'Good, I like, it make it again'; for a start, he's demanding I make it again for him! Where's the please and thank you? Secondly, 'good' is a very weak compliment, although better than 'ok' and suggests that you just responded on automatic pilot, without considering the cooking at all.

I don't know if this makes it easier, but imagine you made something that you were really proud of and eagerly brought it in to show your wife, and she responded with something vague like 'very nice dear' without even looking up from her newspaper... you might feel a bit hurt over her response. I think a similar thing happened over her cooking.

Saying nothing in future 'because she's trained it out of you' doesn't really make sense. Paying attention as to why she's annoyed will show that putting more effort into your choice of words (e.g. "hmm, this is delicious; I really like the [insert ingredient you like]") will yield better response, especially if you say it within the first few mouthfulls and don't wait to be prompted.

"What were you expecting to hear?" ... "Okay, it *WAS* good, but I'll see if I can be more descriptive next time".

At this point, she's either spoiling for a fight, and you deal with it. Or you gradually train her to understand that *GOOD* is a compliment. You're either being trained, or you're doing the training.

Always in mind is the question of "is this the type of relationship I want to be in?" if not, you can a) change it or b) leave it.

Precisely - you can choose to have a grown up relationship and leave the training for the dog

I have a lot of suspicions about why this is. My first culprit is TV. After not watching tv for 6 years, I noticed that there was a lot of penis chopping in today's shows. Why?

Is the matriarchy positioned to make men feel guilty for being masculine? This is extremely tyrannical and lacks balance.

And I fear this is the ideal that females judge relationships against.

---

My gf and I of 4 years decided to throw away all these dumb things and try to rediscover what it means to be a male and a female. It's extremely difficult, but we are more understanding and on solid ground. We find that she cannot give me silence that I need (I get auditory sensory overload) and that I'm not as mobile as she'd like me to be. So, I get ear plugs and she increases her activities. It's a start and it's good. Like how a custom made suit feels, instead of wearing a mold that is mediocre. Throwing out ideals and principles was probably the best thing we did.

TV isn't the cause, just the means of expression.

The causes would include the feminist movement, the civil rights backlash and the child-rearing-methods (such as those advocated by dr. spock). Amongst others.

So an idea is created, one of the ideal man. Sensitive, kind, nurturing, supportive, communicative, in touch with his inner feelings, macho but not a bully, funny, mature, rough but knows limits, chivalrous, etc.

In American society, when was the last time you heard of a) the woman proposing b) purchasing the engagement ring set and c) buying the wedding band? And what do you think of the guy went along with this?

So men get confusing signals (hold the door open, but let the woman participate in paying, propose and buy the ring but it's equal in the relationship) and ultimately, get guilted in behaving in a way they're not.

Yes, guilt. Men are guilted into behaving in non-men fashion. Men earn more, so feel guilty. Men have to work, so feel guilty about not being home with the kids. Men don't have hormonal imbalances, so feel guilty like they should do something about it.

Result: Men are not men these days. Too much effort is given to be PC, sensitive, etc. The men you see are some metro-sexual, pseudo male hybrid of a man and a woman.

How about being yourself? Regardless of the external pressures. Yes, learn from your mistakes and learn how to communicate in order to better yourself but ultimately

Be yourself.

Would it hurt so much for someone to just say what they actually meant? And it sounds like he did give the feedback, yet it wasn't correct or not effusive enough. Maybe she wanted a poem, song or 2 hour opera written about her effiorts?

Reading what budgenator wrote brought back memories of many times being in a similar situation. Being told "Oh, I won't do that again as you didn't like it...", when I really did like whatever she'd made/done and felt I'd made it absolutely clear. And then when you offer to arrange a street party to celebrate whatever they did, they think you're being sarcastic

I recently read this book: "The Hidden Lives of Men: Why Men Fall Out Of Love". http://www.enotalone.com/article/11815.html

Despite being totally NT orientated, it's a fascinating - and rare - insight into what goes on inside men's minds with regard to relationships. What amazed me was the amount of acting and pretending that *all* the men in the book admitted to. They were all basically insecure, lacking confidence, needing another for validation. All those things that the guru's say will prevent you ever getting into a relationship. Yet as these are men who were succesful at attracting women (but not keeping them), they lived a charade of hiding it. As is mentioned many times in the book, men cannot admit to having doubts about themselves, or lacking confidence as we are brought up to believe women will despise us for it. They have noone they can talk openly to. So have to pretend..and the women end up with the best actors...only eventually the mask falls, hence the high divorce rate.

Recommended reading for anyone interested in what's really going on in the mind of that apparently confident, succesful NT man who has women chasing after him!

Having gone to a school with all female teachers, and been brought up in a family where the women made all the decisions on what to spend the money on (the men merely earnt it...). all I ever heard was how wonderful girls were and how dirty and nasty boys were. I'm not sure that the male-bashing has ever really stopped.

Yet looking back, it was the disobedient boys who got on best, the ones who rejected the idea that they should be ashamed of wanting to be masculine. I guess that's what makes me bitter sometimes - that I know I did what was asked of me from the adults (ie suppress all masculinity and become a 'good boy' who studies and doesn't do anything to frighten the delicate little girlies...), yet didn't get the results they promised for that behaviour.

Hi ManErg - some comments in the Updates page here; http://unlearningasperger.blogspot.com/2007/06/updates.html - I'm really lucky with a deeply loving wife - but her pain is a huge motivator to me to move on, break through, break out - you can do it! very best, JC

I am recently self diagnosed and have been married for over 20 years, although I have always had very few friends.

I think it is probably almost entirely due to my wife that we remain married.

She certainly isnt perfect but she has been patient and strong with and for me.

She is a very sociable, likeable and lovable person, so my general lack of social interest has probably been quite hard for her.

Having managed to stay together for so long despite my enormous social blind spots, I think that the best may be ahead of us as I learn to adapt to to Wrong Planet.

I've been married eight years, the longest relationship I've had prior to this one was about nine months - the difference being, I told my wife relatively early about my AS. Basically explaining that, yes there's a reason why I'm not the most talkative person out there and I am paying attention to her even though it looks otherwise. I learned early that all women are slightly crazy in some form of another, which would sound a lot more cynical if all the women I've met haven't proved this to some point. Or, quite possibly my quiet demeanor just draws this type to me.

It's about compromises. While my silence drives her up the walls at times, I think that she's figured out that my harsh honesty would be more devastating then biting my tongue. After replying to "does this make me look fat?" questions a couple times, I've come to find out there is no right answer. If I say no, which is my truthful answer, she thinks I'm just humoring her. If I say "yes, that makes you look remarkable like the kool-aid man without busting through walls" well, I wouldn't be too surprised if I had to sleep on the couch for a month afterwards.

The same is true with shoes, makeup, and numerous other fashionable assecories. I don't see the point, rather then argue this I've tried to come up with theories why she can't exsist without filling our closets with footwear she'll wear a couple times. The best I've come up with is, it's liking chewing gum. At first there's that delightful minty taste, eventually it fades until you're stuck with a hard lump. Which you have to replace to get the same effect. Quite possibly she's addicted to Payless shoes, but I'm addicted to Starbucks and Barnes and Noble - so it evens out.

Silence is definately an issue, whether this applies especially to AS/NT relationships or all forms of committement - I'm not sure. My wife has actually been envious at times about my ability to block nearly everything out - she's the type that will replay conversations looking for hidden meanings and trying to read "between the lines". While I'll just edit out a majority of a conversation to the basic gist and whether or not it's something I might have to remember later in case I get quizzed on it. For the most part resulting in totally forgetting it five minutes later - which I usually found to be no big loss. She calls it apathy - I call it not worrying about gossip and drama that has no influence on my life.