Marriage getting worse and worse

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He can't/won't - in fact, my last therapist believes that he suffers from "dependent personality disorder". He does meet the criteria, so I wouldn't doubt it - but she can only go by my perception of him of course.



This is not me, and I really would appreciate it if you would stop assuming that it is because I need a schedule and have no choice but to step up and take care of my family. Being a responsible wife and mother who is willing to fill in the gap when need be does not make me a crazy domineering control freak who's sucking the life out of my husband as you seem to believe.

...


I didn't say that a person is "childish" if they do not need a rigid routine as I do. Plenty of people are mature, responsible adults without the need for structure. My husband is not one of those people.



Yes, he's aware of it. I've used every avenue possible to make sure that he is aware of it. He even has many different versions of the problem in writing to refer to if he's ever confused, which I sincerely doubt he ever would.



Wow. I've been trying for 2 years to talk, email, write, use white boards, books, calendars, etc. to gently help him to understand my needs. Not just my needs, but our sons needs, and the fact that our house needs maintenance and repairs from time to time. That hardly constitutes "forcing him to meet my need with threats to hurt him by leaving". I'm doing all that I can to compromise, and I'm in behavioral therapy in hopes of being trained to be able to compromise in the area of my "rigid need for structure" because I know this isn't something that I can just choose to change on my own - Honestly now, what on earth else am I supposed to do?
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^^^ I appreciate the reply. Getting more complicated as the details come in... it's easy to assume things when you call him a child and tease him for still wearing a childish backpack.

I can only hope you turned off all distractions, sat him down and looked straight in his eyes (aspies don't care much for that) and tell him, "this is serious - we need to talk!" A comment tossed over one shoulder or dropping lots of hints or a short conversation in the hallway won't cut it. I remember the ex trying to tell me important things by those methods and none of them connected with me... too easily dismissed as "she's just being controlling and demanding again *grumble*"

I encourage people to try a stronger method of communication and to really impress on the partner the SERIOUSNESS AND DEPTH of the feelings in this matter.

My ex tried to "tell me something" by picking up and leaving for six months. I'm *still* not sure what she was trying to say because she couldn't bloody-well VOCALIZE it! All hints... no communication. I interpreted her message to be, "Do whatever I want or I'll take everything you love away from you." When her mysterious ploy failed, she did exactly that.

So, please, try communicating another way before dropping the big bomb on him. And good luck - I really hope you succeed.

I really don't think it's necessary to go and insult the entire forum here. I'm sure that they all have the capacity to realize that my husband obviously has his own perspective on the situation. Perhaps no one else bothered bringing it up because of the fact that he's not participating in the conversation, so it's pointless to try to make assumptions about what he's thinking and feeling.



It was written all over his face that he lied, and the therapist called him out on it. I really don't understand why you would accuse me of trying to get my husband to tell a therapist that he lied if he didn't.



I didn't leave him out of anything. He even gave input as to what would work best for him on the "family" schedule. He chooses not to follow it.




I've been to the park 3 times with him and my son in the last week. I can honestly say that we have likely all been to the park (or something like it) together at least 50 times in the last 6 months, and yes, I'm talking and enjoying our time together as much as anyone else that's there. This has not changed a thing.



Trust me, the last thing I want to do is be my husband's mother. That's why I'm reaching out in all directions for advice. Is your advice to me to just let my husband do whatever he feels like doing? Who is going to take care of the chores and cook and take care of my son and his special needs, and pay the bills and mow the lawn, and do the other million things that need to be done? Do you honestly think that if I just sit back and "join the party" that my husband is going to step up and start doing his share? (or any share?)



To be very honest, I am not threatening him with leaving because I'm trying to control his behavior. I am actually thinking about leaving, and I'm letting him be aware of it so that he understands the severity of the situation. If I didn't do that, and just packed up and left one day, than I'd be wrong for just walking out without even giving him a chance to fix it. Since I've started to consider leaving, he hasn't done anything to change, and despite the fact that I gave him the contact information for the behavioral center that I'm attending, he has yet to contact them. My therapist (AS specialist) is just waiting for him so that we can start couples counselling.

Thanks, I've tried communicating in every way possible. When I attempt to sit him down and look him in the eyes and have a serious talk, he just shuts down. Emailing him seems to work a little bit better, because he's able to at least express to me that he's understood what I've said.

I agree, and I did try this on a very small scale - by not mentioning the fact that it was about time he got his hair cut. Well, the months passed and now it's in his eyes, so he finally made an appointment to get it cut on his own. I really worry about things like this though, because whether or not he looks appropriate for work does effect me too, but I let it slide this time. The thing is though, there's only so many things that I can really do this with. I let him wear shoes with holes in them to work for a few months too, until his mother got mad at ME and she bought him new shoes (! !! !! !! !) (this speaks volumes about where the problem originated, ugh).



I think that this is excellent advice. My husband also agree's to a fair schedule with no resistance, he'll even offer suggestions at the time of planning - with no follow through. Re calibrating my expectations is just about the only thing I feel like I can do at this point.



I will try to do this.



I am rigid, and it is how I cope. If I could find another way to cope, I would gladly take that instead. I will try this.



Thanks, I think that I've more or less let go of perfection, but I don't think I'll ever be able to handle life without structure. I will try to start to focus on what he can do, and figure out alternative ways to get everything else to work, without overloading myself with stress. I guess that's already what I'm doing for the most part though, and I do think that things will be a lot easier for me once I can sell our house. I'll have less to handle, and more money to shell out for assistance.

Thanks for your advice here, it does seem very practical and fitting for my situation. Not to mention, it does put the most positive spin on things that I think is possible.

Your relationship sounds almost exactly like my relationship with my aspie husband (I am also AS).
I am the emotional type of aspie and my husband is the logical type of Aspie. I have no real "solutions" that I can offer, but I can definitely offer some causal explanations for what is happening (from my experience, because I am not an AS therapist). I think you might have a higher desire to synchronize your schedule with your partner. You like to have weekend, yearly family vacation, where to go for christmas, etc... planned in advance. You also would like to "synch" with your partner your daily activities, like what time you go to sleep, what time you have dinner together, etc... I am this way (I think this is an NT like characteristic of mine but I am not sure). I cannot get my husband to "synch" or plan anything with any advance notice, even daily tasks such as dinner time and "lights out" time at night. He may not feel the need to synch his schedule with you at all.

For this problem, I have also considered moving out, having my own weekend plans that exclude him, and also trying to do things completely independently with him. `This is because I get depressed when I am trying (I have the innate need to synch with my partner) synchronize my life/schedule with someone who cannot/or will not synch with others at all. However, it's good to keep in mind that neither I nor him have tried communicating our needs to each other. I do everything around the house as well, including getting flea medication for my pets and dropping off his drycleaning and I am over-whelmed.

Another possible causal explanation is that time passes in a completely different way for my logical AS husband. He lives for the moment in a solitary and independent way. He doesn't think of his life in terms of weeks, months and yearly events/scheduling and does not keep things in the back of his head as well as I do. He has no memory or capacity to keep track of things that happen in the future because he experience things in the "now." He has a cell phone alarm for everything because he can't think of his day as a whole event, but lives in the "now" of every minute.

Solutions? These are the things we've tried-- every day start out with a plan for what will happen when-- dinner time, lights out time, what time you or he will be home from work. This is especially important on weekends when you are together a lot more and you will try to synch with him more than on weekdays.

The problem, with this solution so far, is that although it has been helpful, it's been an artificial replacement for his inability to synch. He will eventually synch out of time with you again and again and in the long run, you will feel off synch with him ultimately. For now, I am trying to synch with my only child (who is only 4) and also my friends. I don't work, so my schedule is all over the place right now, but things will be better when I work again. This is all I have tried for now, and hope that my explanations help.

Thanks so much, this is incredibly helpful actually. I can definitely relate to everything you wrote here.

Would you happen to know if there's a book or something on this? Or did you just come up with all of that from observation?

I completely agree about the lying thing. My husband lies a lot too and he is a logical AS. He says he lies to get me off his back and after he's tried telling the truth and it fails. I have issues with his lying. I think it is a "coping" method he devised up to live life as an Aspie. I am not always aware, but I try to empathize and anticipate when he will lie, and keep in mind that he lies a lot, if he feels that telling the truth isn't working for him.

Your husband has qualities that I have as well, which are putting things off when he is tired and overwhelmed, and getting his needs met like walking at a park instead of cleaning the house, etc... I suggest that he has scheduled times that are independent of you to get those needs met like walking at a park, so that he can help you around the house more often. He might not be getting his breaks or needs met enough so he might be doing them when you are around. How old is your kid? your life might be more manageable after the kid has grown more.

one other thought is you could use REBT (read an Albert Ellis book)/CBT (e.g. moodgym.anu.edu.au) to analyse your own thinking and maybe see if you could decouple from some of the demanding in your mind
e.g.
rather than
he must synch with me
say
it would be nice if he synched with me but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't

Yes, that is interesting and I think you are really onto something here. I think I am realising that I lack the 'follow the crowd'/herd mentality and instead I tend to stand up for the 'little guy'. Seemingly attributes but in reality, along with being argumentive and counterproductive, really hold me back in life. Very interesting, I am definitly going to start working on that

The last bit is probably obvious...but just in case...

You're selling your house. If you lower the price, it will sell faster. Every month you stay in the house costs you money and time. For example, if you just paid some serious maid service to make the house spic-and-span for showings, it's cost a few hundred dollars per showing. Also, housing prices are changing with time - depending on the area.

Given current real estate values, it may be depressing, but it would still be wise to sit down with a spreadsheet and figure out what makes sense. Some possible answers are:

(a) Drop the price significantly - and see how much people bid it up.
(b) Keep on with what you're doing, but pay people to help with showings.
(c) Keep on with what you're doing, but keep the house moderately clean.
(d) Stop trying to sell, and just sit on the house until prices go up.

--Argyle
PS Crossing my fingers for you.

Thanks, I am in behavioral therapy right now, and I am completely willing to try to learn ways to work around these issues.

Thanks, I'm trying to sell by owner right now and offering a 3% commission to buyers agents. Honestly, I don't even think that I could afford to pay a Realtor even if I wanted to. They all want 7% around here. I freelance in marketing and graphic design, and I have worked in Real Estate marketing before, so I have a half way decent handle on what I'm doing from that end, and I'm planning to hire an attorney if/when we get an offer. (Already talked to them about pricing, it's totally reasonable). We've been listed for almost 2 months and I've managed to get 7 or 8 showings so far, but no offers. (we live in the country, so that's a decent amount considering the lack of potential buyers)

At this point, I'm considering 3 options:

1- Drop the price by a few thousand (the most that I can afford to do).
2- Start talking to banks about taking out a loan so that I can drop the price by a lot.
3- Take it off the market next month and wait out the winter and try again in the spring, hoping for a miracle in the market.

If I do take out a loan so that I can drop the price, it'll pay for itself in a round about way. I just feel like the last thing I need is more loans (we have a pile of student debt.)

Ah, if you're significantly underwater, consider behaving like a responsible financial firm. Start out with negotiating a principal reduction. Then, offer to stop paying the mortgage and make the bank evict you. (Please research this first...I am not an expert...just listened to some relatives considering this option.) As I understand it - the bank gets the house, the mortgage, and a lot of legal fees. You get to live in a house rent free for 6-9 months. They do have an incentive to negotiate.

On that subject, if you can pay off student loans with homeowner's loans, bankruptcy can look like a good option. (Which might make such loans problematic.)

If you aren't underwater (and it sounds like you aren't quite underwater), try looking into federally-assisted mortgage modification programs. They originally weren't doing much, but have recently been much more active. (I was refused the first time, went through recently, wasn't much work.) Not worth it if you need to move, but handy if you'd like to lower your payments.

Thing I notice is that, from a purely fiscal point of view, all of your options except (3) sound worse than walking away (and pocketing 6-9 months rent) - once you've added in the stress of months and months of showings. Albeit #3 really could pay off pretty well.

--Argyle

I've only been married for a few months, didn't know the guy terribly well when we married - knew of him and had dated a short while... but obviously not enough. I haven't yet suggested he is an Aspie, but I took an online test on behalf of him, and it's pretty clear.
About the lying - is that typical? Because I imagine taking him to get a diagnosis might not work because of his skill in lying?! I seriously think he believes himself most of the time. Help?

Depends.
1. A diagnosis is mostly useful for the significant other and for work accommodations and services if required. It may also help him face whatever issues he has. If he doesn't need work accommodations, then the diagnosis is mostly useful for the significant other. Realistically, significantly sub-clinical autistic tendencies can cause relationship issues - but won't be diagnosed as Asperger's. So, I'm a bit dubious about seeking diagnoses instead of just saying...XYZ is causing problems and looks a lot like Asperger's - please have a look. (F'r instance, the clinical threshold for autism might be 100 on some imaginary scale. Average might be at 30. Your husband might be a 75. The doctor will say that he doesn't have Aspergers. That won't change the fact that you're unhappy. Of course, if you're confident that your husband is a 120...that risk is lowered.)

If you need the diagnosis to accept his behavior, go for it. It might help. I'm cheap enough (as a real diagnosis is fairly expensive) that I'd rather just accept that my wife is a bit odd, read books on coping with Asperger's in R/S, and try the stuff that looks potentially helpful. The good news is that, for Asperger's in R/S, most books focus on helping the NT adapt to the Aspie because NTs tend to be more flexible. This puts the ball in your court and gives you control over changing the R/S.

It isn't that different from a normal marriage. If you expect your partner to change significantly, you'd best prepare for divorce - better to try changing yourself. You can work around a lot of things in a marriage, but people mostly don't, or can't, change. If he's even mildly autistic, can't will be more common than 'don't'.

2. Why do Aspies lie? Well, there's lots of reasons.
(a) Some Aspies lie because of low empathy. For example, my wife has a lot of trouble understanding that I'm inconvenienced when she agrees to do something and then doesn't bother. (Warning...sometimes it can be hard to differentiate between Aspergers and NPD. Pray it is Aspergers. Check for NPD.*)
(b) Some Aspies lie because they simply lose track of the conversation and are just trying to say something that lets the conversation finish. This will be more common if you have a rigid communication style. (Expect certain responses from people)
(c) Some Aspies lie because they are pretending to be normal - so they'll agree to do things that they can't do. My wife does this sometimes when we talk about child-care.
(d) Some Aspies lie because their S/O refuse to accept their honest answers. 'No, I really can't change X.' 'Then you don't love me - at least say you'll try.' ...6 hours of argument later... 'Sure, I'll 'try'.' I shouldn't do this...but sometimes I just need to sleep.
(e) Some Aspies flip/flop on unclear decisions. I tend to see both sides of every issue. My wife tends to need yes/no answers. Sort-of-maybe confuses her. (Is it yellow or blue? Green. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! !) She feels pretty frustrated when I answer yes, discuss all the reasons for yes, and then, an hour later, she mentions the other part of the problem, and I answer no, and discuss all the reasons for no. Meh. I'm still trying to figure out a good solution there.

Well, we haven't solved this.
But...in theory...
(a) can be solved by making it clear to your husband that you'd prefer that he just be honest because it inconveniences you a lot when he breaks commitments. And by you repeatedly checking that he's actually thought through his answer. 'Are you actually going to do that - because you've said stuff like this before and nothing actually happened - I'd rather plan to do it myself than wait for you to do nothing. Honestly no? No worries, I'll hire maid service instead...'
(b) can be solved by keeping conversations short, simple, and, if possible, written. Try following books on nonviolent communication, but leaving out any steps you don't need. My wife, for example, gets confused if I praise her before bringing something up. Adopting a Socratic style of speech - just ask him questions and let him ramble - can also help.
(c) can be reduced by avoiding shame if at all possible and by tracking what your spouse actually does as opposed to what he commits to and adjusting in accordance with his displayed abilities.
(d) can be solved by accepting that 'I can't' really means 'I can't' and immediately focusing on workarounds instead of browbeating your S/O. If he's autistic, there will be a lot of 'I can'ts'.
(e) I dunno. Problem is that yes, no, and maybe are all wrong answers. Maybe I should try sticking to my guns and saying 'definitely maybe'. Thing is, that usually doesn't work.

In the end, a diagnosis won't change much. The thing that can change outcomes significantly is simply accepting that you married a man who is different that you expected him to be, deciding whether or not you want to stay with that man, and then adapting to his behaviors. Going into an NT marriage expecting the other person to change is a recipe for failure (and a marker of personality issues). Going into a marriage with an Aspie and expecting most of the change to be on their end is just...inadvisable.

I have seen perfectly normal men and women fight endlessly until one of them simply accepts that the other one has somewhat different priorities, accepts those priorities, and starts making their own happiness while treating their mate as part of their life instead of all of their life.

--Argyle
*The typical advice for NPD involves running really really fast.