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DeaconBlues
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12 May 2007, 5:43 pm

Postperson wrote:
..maybe we are Human Mark II, scientifically.

More like v1.5, I'd say - the original model, Homo sapiens sapiens, can still survive without Homo sapiens aspergerus. They wouldn't be as comfortable, nor as long-lived, but they could survive...

Similarly, we could survive without humanity's other subspecies, but after a while, we wouldn't be happy - who's gonna do the scutwork with all the NTs gone? What, you're gonna guilt an Aspie into it? :)


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12 May 2007, 8:40 pm

ZanneMarie wrote:
When you type it to an Aspie, you can't expect that they will read into it. That's kind of stretching it. I posted as you posted back to Fuzzy or I would have seen that you changed your wording.

What you describe as above is mental illness as a result of your experiences from AS, not the AS itself - in other words, a comorbid. Most of those aren't really even considered illnesses now, but if you want to call them that, it really doesn't matter.

I still don't get what you are really after in your post. Are you trying to feel better about it by thinking it's evolutionary advancement? The truth is cockroaches, alligators and sharks succeed the best in any evolutionary event and they don't have the biggest brain or the most complex. We may succeed in the short term, but we don't stand much chance in the long run. We are too specialized and we are getting more so. Having said that, I do believe Aspies are more suited to being in a more specialized world - for the short term.


I think that you are short changing aspies because there are people here who are capable of abstract thought. The problem is that everyone is trying to interpret what I'm saying as either some kind of self esteem booster or self flaggellation. I'll say for the third time, my experience having AS does not change no matter how I qualify the condition or how I categorize it, so hypothetically calling it a "mental illness" or "evolutionary superiority" (someone else's words) doesn't make me feel any better or worse about it. People seem dead set on separating AS from its comorbidities, which in this context is splitting hairs.

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What I have to say here may seem inflammatory, but that is not my intention. I merely give examples and opinion that will either back up or conflict with your views in this subject:

Many animal species show depression. Jane Goodall witnessed a male chimpanzee born of an aged female (and therefore unable to make him leave her at the right time) die of depression when she died. As you say above, it conflicted with his instinct to survive, but he died anyway. Food was available - he refused it. Horses, dogs and cats get depressed. Zoo animals do. Elephants definitely.

I had a bipolar dog. Other mental illnesses are recorded in veterinarian abstracts. To examine if an animal has Asperger's, you would have to examine species who normally exist in groups, and not as solitary individuals on a normal basis. Perhaps this can be done. If it is, you'll probably see that Asperger animals do exist. Examination of homosexuality in animals in the last few decades (considered a "mental disorder" by many, not by myself) it was shown that it exists in many species. I observed a pair of homosexual bucks going at it on a nearly continual basis in the woods near my house last fall, so you can't tell me I'm wrong!

To think that we are evolutionarily superior to other species is an error I believe. Depends on the criteria. Water bears can live dehydrated for over 100 years. Amphibians can withstand freezing over winter. Beetles dominate the earth.

Where does "mental illness" fall in the theory of evolution? Everything that is here is here because it has the capacity to be here. If it didn't have the capacity to be here, it wouldn't be here. It all exists on a continuum.
Everything that fits in the definition "mental illness" (a man-made construct with lines drawn in sand that continually shift) exists within the larger continuum of evolution. Whether the "mental illness" is "useful" and thereby propagated doesn't always matter. Its enough that it isn't "lethally detrimental", and therefore deleted out of existence.


What you said about the chimpanzee is the point I'm trying to make. I don't understand how you consider this inflammatory to what I'm saying, when you just basically verified what I said about instinct and depression when some other people took exception to just that. In one way I can understand, because if my post implied that depressed and bipolar animals can't exist then you just contradicted it, but that is something I don't know about, strictly speaking - the idea is that it's impossible for such an animal to be genetically successful, at least to the extent of the same group in the human species.

So you chalk it up to genes that "have the capacity to exist" and just leave it at that, but these genes only have the capacity to survive in the human species. Do we know enough about the mental evolution of our species to be able to say that these genes don't play some role? Humans are the only animals capable of intelligence as we define it, and are also the only animal capable of these complex personality anomalies. We have a lot of them.

Also I want to make clear that I never said humans or aspies were evolutionarily superior to anything, because that implies long term survival. I'm thinking here in terms of complexity. We are the most mentally complex species and I'm sure most of us would agree that aspies are more mentally complex than the average human. Just food for thought.



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12 May 2007, 9:24 pm

maldoror wrote:

I think that you are short changing aspies because there are people here who are capable of abstract thought. The problem is that everyone is trying to interpret what I'm saying as either some kind of self esteem booster or self flaggellation. I'll say for the third time, my experience having AS does not change no matter how I qualify the condition or how I categorize it, so hypothetically calling it a "mental illness" or "evolutionary superiority" (someone else's words) doesn't make me feel any better or worse about it. People seem dead set on separating AS from its comorbidities, which in this context is splitting hairs.





Actually it has nothing to do with abstract thought. I can sit with a business person and hear what they want to do and know exactly how their system should work, that's an abstract concept. I can understand physics but I can't do the math because I can understand it abstractly. I can also write very convincingly about pregnancy and children (and have every NT woman believe I've been pregnant and raised children) even though I've never been pregnant or had a child. That is pretty abstract. What I can't do is read minds of people or read between the lines. Yes some Aspies can. Next time say those are the only ones you want to read and respond.

As to co-morbids, not all Aspies have them so it isn't splitting hairs. I don't have depression and I'm not bipolar, but those are pretty common co-morbids. As a matter of fact, most Aspies have differing co-morbids, if they have them at all and they aren't guaranteed which is why they are called co-morbids.

Evolutionarily speaking, I'd say that we're recognized more now because we've become a technological society where NTs feel the need to write books about their social isolation and how to cope with that. We don't have to cope with that because we're built for that. It makes us more successful in that environment so we are viewed as better mates and have more of a chance to breed. That's about all it takes to become evolutionarily successful unless we get ourselves into a situation where disease wipes us out.

That would be a survival of the fittest thing if we eventually outbred the NTs. I don't see that happening, but there will probably be more and more Aspies.


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12 May 2007, 9:36 pm

ZanneMarie wrote:
This crap of they are the majority so they are right is crap.


ZanneMarie,

This is perfectly fine as long as you continue to apply it to your subjective life. You have to remember though, that modern society is founded on the majority; what they vote for is what we get: whether I’m “mentally ill” or not, whether I live to unjust laws or not; whether we invade a sovereign nation for no apparent reason or not. The majority “vote” on this with their very numbers – it doesn’t matter if I’m capable of seeing and pointing out their error when their very survival as a species relies on “group think” and following the loudest mouth; whether it’s correct or not. It's stupid, wrong and "ill", but that's how it "is". My single voice will never change it because I don't have one.

If all I can do is live off the land, ignore and break "objective" laws; I'd be unable to work with any humans, unable to do anything I'm not "interested" in; unable to study to achieve qualifications..., what am I to do other than live off the fat of kings?

It’s Jail, graveyard or pension for this subjective individual; what’s this subjective individual to do and choose?



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12 May 2007, 9:40 pm

Mal, my friend, you proceed from a false assumption. You assume that genes for depression, bipolar disorder, et al., cannot exist in animal populations, when in fact they can. Their numbers are fewer in animals due to the uniqueness of the human social construct - we protect and defend our "weaker" members, where with most animal species, the "weak" are left to fend for themselves. (Note: the word "weak" is placed in quotes because it is in fact a term of convenience. It does not necessarily reflect the worthiness of an individual to survive, it merely reflects the fact that for such individuals, survival is more difficult without the support of a larger society.)

This fact of human nature underlies a common assumption in hard science fiction - the idea that once a species achieves technological civilization, it ceases to evolve, as it protects all of its members, not just the strongest. (Again, this is not necessarily a bad thing - perhaps once a species achieves technology, it no longer needs to evolve, as it becomes capable of shaping its environment to suit itself, rather than the other way around. An example of this is the development of equipment enabling human survival in Antarctica - the harshest environment available on this planet. Another example is the development of spacegoing technologies, enabling survival in the harshest environment possible.)

However, this fact does not mean that animals don't experience what we would term "mental illness". It is harder for us to detect such illness in animals, as they lack our comparatively sophisticated methods of communication (I have yet to hear whales, musical as they are, score a symphony); however, such things can be detected, once one gets to know the animals well enough. That's how researchers bred rat populations with weaknesses for such things as schizophrenia and depression (after all, it's considered unethical to vivisect actual living human schizophrenics, to examine their nervous systems...).

That's why part of my brother-in-law's next project will involve attempting to breed a rat population that displays autistic tendencies, so he can investigate certain neurochemicals.


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ZanneMarie
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12 May 2007, 9:57 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
ZanneMarie wrote:
This crap of they are the majority so they are right is crap.


ZanneMarie,

This is perfectly fine as long as you continue to apply it to your subjective life. You have to remember though, that modern society is founded on the majority; what they vote for is what we get: whether I’m “mentally ill” or not, whether I live to unjust laws or not; whether we invade a sovereign nation for no apparent reason or not. The majority “vote” on this with their very numbers – it doesn’t matter if I’m capable of seeing and pointing out their error when their very survival as a species relies on “group think” and following the loudest mouth; whether it’s correct or not. It's stupid, wrong and "ill", but that's how it "is". My single voice will never change it because I don't have one.

If all I can do is live off the land, ignore and break "objective" laws; I'd be unable to work with any humans, unable to do anything I'm not "interested" in; unable to study to achieve qualifications..., what am I to do other than live off the fat of kings?

It’s Jail, graveyard or pension for this subjective individual; what’s this subjective individual to do and choose?


Where do you think I live? I live in modern society just like you. They won't consider you mentally ill if you don't go to a shrink and use your brain to stay out of their way. I don't care what they vote for. They vote all the time for things I could care less about and don't really want to support (and that includes many things that Aspies on here would vote for). I pay my taxes and do what I want. I could dwell in the crying mode over it, in fact I moved to a different country for two years over it, but it makes no difference in the end so I moved back, paid my taxes and did what I wanted.

If you need to break laws and live off the land to make it, you need to rethink. I don't do any of this. I work at a normal job, it just suits me because it's 99.5% alone and project driven. Same thing I've done for 22 years. When I was in managment and hated it, that was on me and I got out. It wasn't their problem, it was mine. I didn't like it. It had nothing to do with them.

Why aren't you able to work in what you are interested in? That's on you. You have to figure it out just like I did. The fat of kings comes with them telling you what you are and what you'll do. Sorry, I pass. The only king here is dh and I am still the Queen.

I don't understand why you think your only options are jail, graveyard or pension. What is it that you are interested in doing that you feel you can't? Is it an extremely social pursuit? I can't see that appealing to you anyway. I don't understand why you can't pursue what you want. Explain please.


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12 May 2007, 10:17 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
ZanneMarie wrote:
This crap of they are the majority so they are right is crap.


ZanneMarie,


It’s Jail, graveyard or pension for this subjective individual; what’s this subjective individual to do and choose?


Keep me posted on what path you chose, Daniel, I am not too far behind you on that adventure into the body growing older and into SSA and Medicare and dealing with it. it might be useful to Lau as he writes his FAQ thread.


Merle



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12 May 2007, 10:23 pm

Danielismyname, there is room in modern society for an underdog/scapegoat to write their own rules. To live peacefully and to even be a success.

I'll list 3. I could list 10. I could find 100. Tens of thousands exist. Millions await being invented. I'm not noted for over exagerating. Ask for further details on any that are interesting.

1. Run a vending business. I did this. Walk in, count the contents, refill, empty the change. Top up the coin return. repeat weekly.
2. Make and sell a craft. Jewelry is a really good one. Women always want more, and there isnt enough mens stuff. Its an under supplied market.
3. Programming. Work by yourself. Its pure logic. You can stay home.

Note that no laws were broken in this list. All work is done solo, and any interaction can be done by proxy. All three can be started with 0-100 dollars, with current standing conditions for anyone reading this.



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12 May 2007, 11:29 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Sedaka wrote:
it has to do with epigentic mechanisms that control gene expression... which supports why they haven't found any gene markers for autism ect... caues it's not our genes that are wrong (no DNA mutations)... but HOW the get expressed... there's a lot that goes on to make your genes get expressed.

Well, actually, Sedaka, about two months ago researchers at the University of Washington reported finding 17 genetic markers, many of which were present (although sometimes in differing combinations) in 90% of the autistic subjects they studied. It's complex, all right - but it does indeed appear to be genetic in nature.

Oh, and also, a zygote does not form from two complete sets of DNA, but rather from one-half of each parent's genetic structure. Some genetic complexes are reinforced in this merger, some suppressed, and some expressed only because nothing is there to suppress them. But there is no "war" going on during this process - rather, more of a dance.


you have two sets of every gene except for what's on your sex chromosomes...

we are diploid... meaning two sets of every gene... our gametes are haploid... having one set of DNA... they fuse to make diploid organisms... and yes there are very complex interactions that discretely handle expressional differences between those two sets.

as for the genetic markers... yeah, that is kinda wishy washy... who knows... everyone thinks THEY do

edit: what you said too is correct in a sense... in that our gametes are a random sampling of 1/2 our genes (they comprise one whole set of chromosomes but you random;y only get one chromosome out of every pair of chromosomes... so yes 1/2 set from each of your parents is in every sperm or egg)


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12 May 2007, 11:37 pm

maldoror wrote:
Thanks for your replies, but a lot of you are completely flying past my intended point. The idea is this: where does mental illness fall in the theory of evolution? Okay, since some of you don't like the term mental illness, we'll use psychological disorder. It doesn't matter. Can a chipmunk be bipolar? Can a chipmunk have Asperger's syndrome? No, because a chipmunk has not reached the stage in its evolution yet where those things can be developed. If a chipmunk was depressed, it would not know how to comprehend its depression because depression conflicts with its instinct to survive. AS is the same concept, but further in that direction. People with AS might turn out to be human mark II.


kinda fits into... if it ain't broke, don't fix it...

only matters if you can successfully reproduce...

as for chipmonk with autism/As... i'd say totally... we work with moues and rat models already to study autism...

i would venture to say that most mammals have similar enough circuitry to be able to identify similar/equivalent conditions...

of course they manifest somewhat differently, as the social life of these guys are very different blah blah blah


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12 May 2007, 11:58 pm

There is a site that I found when I was researching ADHD and AS in children. I don't know if I put the name of the site here but view neurobiological deviances in children as the next step in the chain of evolution. They call these children "indigo children".

**If you are of religious mind you may want to stop reading here!*****


Basically, the man who has been studying these children has noticed that a great many of them talk about visions, and predictions. These are intelligent, sane kids who are given the chance to talk freely of what they see and experience. Many young children talk of these things,, but of course it is taboo to do that in most homes in our society. My own children and I have experienced many of these things and I normally do not talk about them. I'm sure there are many on WP who have also experienced such things as children. :wink:

From reading about the theories expressed there and reading what the members of this site say, I don't know that it is such a far-fetched theory. If a normal, NT, person only utilizes approx. 10% of the human brain, and genius 20%, wouldn't it stand to reason that removing the emotional and social aspects of the mind to make room for intellect and logic makes sense from an evolutionary stand point. And if the emotional and social are out of the way wouldn't the psychic ability that most humans have the possibility of be easier to nurture and use?

There is a shift in the thinking of the human race that is leaning more and more toward spiritual enlightenment. I don't mean the religious kind. I mean the kind that embraces the true potential of the human mind and soul. As more and more neurobiologically diverse people are born ( I produced 3 myself) our way of being will become more and more the norm and at one point we will all "fit" in society. There are many articles about how more and more children of computer technicians and scientists are being dx.ed as autistic because people with the genes and autistic personality are having children together. Some call it an epidemic, but what if it isn't? What if it is how the evolution of humans needs to be in order to progress?

Just a little something to think about :D



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13 May 2007, 12:20 am

I've often wondered this. Your viewpoint is not at all offensive to me.


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13 May 2007, 2:06 am

Sedaka wrote:
DeaconBlues wrote:
Sedaka wrote:


Oh, and also, a zygote does not form from two complete sets of DNA, but rather from one-half of each parent's genetic structure. Some genetic complexes are reinforced in this merger, some suppressed, and some expressed only because nothing is there to suppress them. But there is no "war" going on during this process - rather, more of a dance.




some of us are expressed only because there is nothing that CAN surpress us. we are the angels that dance on the head of a pin.


Merle


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13 May 2007, 2:19 am

blessedmom wrote:
There is a site that I found when I was researching ADHD and AS in children. I don't know if I put the name of the site here but view neurobiological deviances in children as the next step in the chain of evolution. They call these children "indigo children".

**If you are of religious mind you may want to stop reading here!*****


Basically, the man who has been studying these children has noticed that a great many of them talk about visions, and predictions. These are intelligent, sane kids who are given the chance to talk freely of what they see and experience. Many young children talk of these things,, but of course it is taboo to do that in most homes in our society. My own children and I have experienced many of these things and I normally do not talk about them. I'm sure there are many on WP who have also experienced such things as children. :wink:

From reading about the theories expressed there and reading what the members of this site say, I don't know that it is such a far-fetched theory. If a normal, NT, person only utilizes approx. 10% of the human brain, and genius 20%, wouldn't it stand to reason that removing the emotional and social aspects of the mind to make room for intellect and logic makes sense from an evolutionary stand point. And if the emotional and social are out of the way wouldn't the psychic ability that most humans have the possibility of be easier to nurture and use?

There is a shift in the thinking of the human race that is leaning more and more toward spiritual enlightenment. I don't mean the religious kind. I mean the kind that embraces the true potential of the human mind and soul. As more and more neurobiologically diverse people are born ( I produced 3 myself) our way of being will become more and more the norm and at one point we will all "fit" in society. There are many articles about how more and more children of computer technicians and scientists are being dx.ed as autistic because people with the genes and autistic personality are having children together. Some call it an epidemic, but what if it isn't? What if it is how the evolution of humans needs to be in order to progress?

Just a little something to think about :D


Is this Children of the New? One of my NT co-workers told me about it if it is.


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13 May 2007, 7:29 am

I am who I am
since I was dubbed son
it only exists to me when it’s fun
everything else is like trying to extinguish the sun
spear in hand, feet on ground and mind upon the land
“artificial” light is this man’s blight
no society to distinguish and determine propriety
no verbal needed to get my point across
drifting how I've always drifted; wandering how I've always wondered
everything here is my plight
nothing is my respite

When my love is gone...I'll be gone.



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13 May 2007, 10:16 am

ZanneMarie wrote:
blessedmom wrote:
There is a site that I found when I was researching ADHD and AS in children. I don't know if I put the name of the site here but view neurobiological deviances in children as the next step in the chain of evolution. They call these children "indigo children".

**If you are of religious mind you may want to stop reading here!*****


Basically, the man who has been studying these children has noticed that a great many of them talk about visions, and predictions. These are intelligent, sane kids who are given the chance to talk freely of what they see and experience. Many young children talk of these things,, but of course it is taboo to do that in most homes in our society. My own children and I have experienced many of these things and I normally do not talk about them. I'm sure there are many on WP who have also experienced such things as children. :wink:



From reading about the theories expressed there and reading what the members of this site say, I don't know that it is such a far-fetched theory. If a normal, NT, person only utilizes approx. 10% of the human brain, and genius 20%, wouldn't it stand to reason that removing the emotional and social aspects of the mind to make room for intellect and logic makes sense from an evolutionary stand point. And if the emotional and social are out of the way wouldn't the psychic ability that most humans have the possibility of be easier to nurture and use?

There is a shift in the thinking of the human race that is leaning more and more toward spiritual enlightenment. I don't mean the religious kind. I mean the kind that embraces the true potential of the human mind and soul. As more and more neurobiologically diverse people are born ( I produced 3 myself) our way of being will become more and more the norm and at one point we will all "fit" in society. There are many articles about how more and more children of computer technicians and scientists are being dx.ed as autistic because people with the genes and autistic personality are having children together. Some call it an epidemic, but what if it isn't? What if it is how the evolution of humans needs to be in order to progress?

Just a little something to think about :D


Is this Children of the New? One of my NT co-workers told me about it if it is.


It is called Children of the New Earth. I find the ideas quite interesting. I haven't ordered the newsletter because I don't know where the money would be going (it may be some bizarre cult) but I like the idea. :)