AS mens silence in regard to relationships with NT women

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I would like to thank the men here who are sharing their feelings and outlooks.

I've finally realized the man I've been trying to relate to for about the last 14 years is on the AS spectrum. I can't believe it took so long, but I was fooled by his not fitting the profile I had in my mind (engineer/computer programmer) because he's not a math-geek and has a terrible relationship with his computer! I'm on the pointy end of the IQ scale and tend to have "Mensa" types as friends, colleagues and relatives. I know the kind of Dilbert-style socially clunky behavior and figured he didn't fit the stereotype I had in my mind.

So I kept wondering -- what IS it with him???

Now I have spent a lot of time just in the last few days on WP, reading and absorbing a lot of people's stories and insights.

I realize that what I was seeing as passive-aggressive behavior is his coping strategy for the underlying AS. It's still not pretty, and I still don't like it, but I feel a sense of release and enlightenment. In understanding him better, I think I feel I can feel more tenderness toward him, more protective of his feelings.

He has told me for years that he feels bad that it appears he "can't meet my emotional needs." Trouble is, he'll say that in response to just about anything I say that denotes specific frustrations within the relationship, so that it really acts as a brush-off, when I read it. Sort of a blanket statement that covers whatever. My email can be 40 specific paragraphs on (for example) how nice it would be if he were to apologize after going mysteriously silent on me for weeks for no apparent reason or fault of mine. Or I tell him exactly what hurt my feelings about his not offering any kind words for an oil painting I showed him, which I was really proud of having made....

So you can see how I'm picking up some real resonances here, with the "nice dinner" problem.

People "vent" because they feel pain and frustration. But some of this is really chickens and eggs problems. We get used to things being "broken," on both sides. Learned helplessness can include an AS woman who becomes fatalistic about a man she has known to NOT open up, to NOT respond, to refuse to talk about anything emotional, to rebuff her attempts again and again. So you get this standoff.

Nobody wins a standoff.

One of the disappointments I have with this man is that he's not compromise-oriented. He is rigid. He is habit-bound. He doesn't see what's wrong with his way of doing things. He seems sad that this results in my feeling bad, but there's no connection between that and any motive to do any changing or compromising. I've done a tremendous amount of adapting over the years! I've gotten used to his quarantine on emotional topics for discussion. what I call "the important things."

Two days ago I visited him and told him I thought I had things figured out, and pointed him to WP. That made me so nervous -- I figured it must constitute breaking his taboos to do bring something like this up! He probably doesn't believe me. I think he'll think of it as another manifestation of my peculiarities. In fact, dealing with his imposed topic-taboos for so many years, I think my own communication style has become somewhat warped. I found myself dealing in a passive-aggressive way in response to his "style." Not allowed to just bring things up (he'd go stony cold silent if I said things directly that made him uncomfortable) brought out some less-optimal ways of communicating.

Sorry this is so long! I'm still turning a lot of things over in my mind.

But again, thanks for sharing. I really do need to be able to understand the male AS mindset better. He's not going to tell me. It could take a long time until he even (if ever) accepts the ideas I brought him. But you're here.

I appreciate the communication.

Sounds like my partner describing me. It does feel different (in my experience) from the AS side - one struggles endlessly to pick the right solution from an array of learned responses without any clear distinction about the nature of the inputs that would favor one over another, knowing that the "right" answer would be immediately apparent to anyone with normal empathic machinery.

Stress levels go up, and barriers come down. Life as an aspie...

It's hard to read tone into these posts, so let me add that the inflection on "He is rigid" etc. is neutral - It's like "He's 6 feet tall, his eyes are grey, this is the way he does things, this is the way he is." As opposed to the "And here's what he does!" kind of outrage.

There's a huge difference between NT understanding AS behavior as "can/can't do" Vs "will/won't do." So if there's just one kind of thing you focus on to communicate about, that might be it.

To give perspective, there are Narcisistic people who have high "E.Q." and use it to be Manipulative and Controlling. They know how to exploit other people to their advantage. They enjoy it. They'll use a range of techniques to dominate other people, which include stuff that can look a lot like what an AS persona delivers by sheer cluelessness. I was married to a narcissistic manipulator. ( can you tell?) What sets off alarms for me is communication that seems to belittle my talents or slight my contributions. A manipulator can deliberate belittle his partner, to impose and consolidate control. It can be done passively, by simple failure to deliver thanks or praise when it would normally be appropriate.

Since part of most people's need for self-respect includes approval from those who are important to them, we are approval-seeking creatures. Maybe we bake a cake hoping to see delighted smiles. The more expectations we have of praise -- we think we've really done something that calls for recognition -- the more dangerous it becomes for the person who's approval is being sought.

Forget a birthday? Oh well, that's a magnitude of normal stuff a mature person can learn to live with. But tell someone that a Tenth Anniversary is not anything special so why celebrate it? (My friend did this.) This is the kind of logic that causes tremendous hurt.

Logical? Sure. But the message of "not special" = "you're not special to me." Its like telling someone that they are insignificant.

If you have explained in advance that this is simply your kind of logic, it may help mitigate these terrible impasses.

If I think someone is merely "emotionally clueless" -- as bad as that sounds -- it still beats the bejeesus out of all the other possible interpretations.

My other best friend (& business partner) has been aware of and communicated about his Asperger's-type deficits for years. He's shared some of the self-analysis with me. I've learned to factor that in to interpreting what he says, and we're very comfortable in our interactions most of the time!

I know this thread is for you guys, so I hope posting as a woman won't seem invasive.

I guess the message boils down to: please communicate! Even if you have a hard time with the (emotionally-freighted) minutia, I believe meta-level communication ABOUT communication should be helpful.

Many thanks for your long posts! Is is kind of incredible how many men are here that would rather talk about *anything* than this.

From my point of view, which is rather confused, I really feel I have *tried* to communicate, but had it deliberately manipulated, distorted, twisted and used as evidence against me. So I learnt to keep quiet.

I don't know whether it's an Aspie thing, a man thing, both, or just a 'me' thing. But over time, I learnt that if I said/did something to upset my partner , then I was in the wrong for being so insensitive. And if she said/did something to upset me, then I was in the wrong for being too sensitive. Eventually just being wrong and failing all the time get's too much, so I learned to say nothing at all. I learnt that talk isn't safe, especially when you're trying to be 'honest' to somebody you are in a relationship with. It worked OK for maybe 10 years, which is longer than many relationships, I suppose.

Now, realistically, I know there is a time for openness, a time to be tactful, a time to speak up and a time to say nothing. However, I get them totally mixed up and have no idea what approach I should be using now! It seems so confusing, and the worst aspect, as I said above, is that it leaves me open to manipulation by the other. Manipulation that would be blatantly obvious to the average NT male, but can take me years to figure out as I always assume that other people are telling the truth as they see it.

How much of this is due to AS is anybodies guess. Other unfortunate factors, like being bullied and many years of being ignored as relationship material almost certainly have some influence, too. And Aspies aren't the only people wandering around with 'issues' in their head

What an interesting topic, as I have been thinking a lot about this since my separation 2.5 years ago. I have only known about AS and how it might apply to me for about 6 months, but here is my experience.

In the end, the biggest complaints coming from my wife was about my obsessive behavior, my lack of emotion, my lack of empathy, my anger and that I was "no longer any fun".

I have went through many interests over the years and it was always the same basic format. Something would catch my interest and I would start researching it and talking about it non stop. I would eat, sleep and drink my interest to the exclusion of everyone and everything else, including my wife and kids. I would spend large amounts of money on some of my interests, but to be fair, I made large amounts of money off of some of my interests, especially in the computer field.

She always called these my "kicks" and would be upset that I would spend so much time with them and money on them. I encouraged her to get a hobby, or go out and do her own interests, but she didn't seem to have any, other then socializing, drinking and watching tv.

We sought help for myself when I started to go through some depression and I was diagnosed bipolar. I was put on a lot of meds that made things so much more worse.

She would complain that if I was sick, she would take care of me, make me soup and stuff like that, but when she was sick, I wouldn't do any of these things. I actually never thought of doing these things, cause I couldn't empathize with what she was feeling, I only knew that she wasn't feeling well. If she asked, I would do them, but she figured that she shouldn't have to ask, I should just know to do them.

My emotions really bothered her. They always seemed out of proportion. I wouldn't show sadness when someone died, but I would start crying while watching a tv show. I wouldn't show anger when she would try to pick a fight or bait me, but I would rip the house apart in a fit of rage if I couldn't find my checkbook. She also couldn't understand how I get get so worked up and angry and burst out crying and then about 10 minutes after a "meltdown" I could be happy and acting as if nothing happened.

A big thing for her was that I didn't like to go out as much as her and I wouldn't drink much when we did. A lot of that was me trying to cope with her drinking problem. She had started drinking a lot behind my back during the day when I wasn't home. People asked how I didn't notice, but she hid it well, and I was usually working on a project or reading when I came home. Once I found out about the drinking, I handled it poorly. I would get her to do "tasks" for me while I was at work, arranging appointments, or hunting down parts or anything I could think of to keep her busy. I thought if I could keep her busy, she wouldn't drink.

She worked out of the house while taking care of our youngest, but complained a lot, and wanted to work outside the home. I couldn't figure out why and I myself yearned to quit my job and start working from the house again.

We did try talking things out at times, but couldn't seem to communicate properly. If I did tell her what I was feeling or what was going on in my head, she would take it to heart. She would blame herself for how I was feeling. Even though I would tell her it had nothing to do with her, and I just wanted time to myself (we're talking hours, not days or weeks here). Of course, when she would tell me what was going on with her, and how she felt, I couldn't relate, or show empathy properly, usually resulting in her telling me how I didn't care and how cold I was.

Twice in our 13 year marriage we separated. The first time had a lot of the same issues. She ended up leaving me for a close friend of mine. After a couple years of separation, I was prospering in my career and she came back into my life. I was lonely and struggled with trying to start and maintain any relationships and thought getting back together with her seemed like a good idea. The second separation which lead to the divorce was the same thing. She left me for a very close friend of mine, but has tried to reconcile with me since.

Another thing that contributed to the end of my marriage was my latest obsession. I had gained a lot of weight while on the bipolar medications and was diagnosed as diabetic. My doctor told me to lose weight or take pills. I was scared to take any more pills so I lost the weight. Fast. I put myself on a strict diet and followed it. I consistently lost about 2 lbs per week and quickly slimmed down. I ate (haha), slept and drank weight loss through nutrition and exercise. I started jogging, weight lifting and aerobics. She would accuse me of having a girlfriend or getting ready to leave her. It made her really insecure that I was putting this much of myself into weight loss.

These were the issues that she had with me, and that she shared with me (either through talking or yelling). This really only scratches the surface of all the problems we had, but was what she chose to tell me were her problems in the end. In the end she said she got together with my friend because he made her feel appreciated and was able to talk to her on a level I couldn't.

I gave myself a real hard time over this. By this time I had pretty much figured I wasn't bipolar. I had quit medication years before and felt better then ever. I thought maybe I was greedy, self centered and really didn't care about anyone else. I didn't feel this way, but I knew I was unable to show it, or do what was expected of me. I don't know if knowing about AS and how it applied to me would've saved my marriage, but I do think it would have saved a lot of heartache, and the problems that we did have might not have been so blown out of proportion.

I don't think it is only AS men. Every man I have ever been involved with has complained that I do not talk enough. When I am upset, I get quiet. Being attacked or criticized for being quiet will only make me clam up even more. While I am quiet, I am brooding/obsessing/internalizing what I am upset about, and the pain multiplies to the point that I am unable to talk about it- it just hurts too much.

Oh...my... I think most of you just described my life.

There is too many things to respond to but I've also been (rightfully?) accused of being too quiet.

My wife and I have been together for 12 years now and it has been both good and bad, as in all relationships I guess.

I didn't know about AS up until maybe 6 month ago. But has always felt weird and misplaced. And much of our arguments has been around things caused by my AS. Not talking enough. Not taking initiative for sex. Being weird and/or silent in social situations. Not "taking care" of her when she was sick. Just about everything previous posters has described.

The biggest problem right now, for me, is how to handle my AS. Many articles I've read seem to tell the NT-partner that they need to change and treat the AS-partner in certain ways. Or NT's wanting the AS to behave like everyone else, which is more or less impossible. I guess there has to be some kind of middle ground and two people that can look past themselves and try to get things to work.

Knowing about AS hasn't made the problems go away but it has made them easier to talk about.

On the other hand there are some good things my AS has brought to our relationship. I would never cheat on her, it is just not anything I would even consider. I'm not not a "dangerous" alpha-male that would force myself on her. I love playing with our kids, something she finds hard to do. I don't stick to old gender-rules and have no problem doing "girly stuff" like flower arangements and such. And so on...

(Think I might have drifted off topic a little at the end...)