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First off, I never said we were alike right now. I just said you remind me a lot of me before I joined the military.

Second, just forget the PETA thing.

Third, compromise is still kinda the same thing. You are requiring your partner to help you and go halfway or you wouldn't be with him, right?

Fourth, are you a mom? Most women do change with motherhood. Well, all experience some physical, hormonal, and mental changes, and some experience changes in their spirituality as well as goals in life. Kids are tough to raise. It's not anything as seen on tv. Some women stress out trying to get their baby to eat, and that's the easy part. You just start to approach things with a little more sense of urgency and importance. You have to.

Fifth, to be honest, most single moms I know tend to mother from their critical more than their nurturing because they are tired and exhausted and unhappy doing all the work by themselves. Of course, they feel better 30 years down the road than the woman who didn't leave her man, but still those early years.... Even then, I wonder how many actually did do it all on their own. Government handouts, help from parents...that's not doing it on your own. That's getting help. In the end, nobody can do it all on their own. You need help to raise kids.

That is a factor in my decision as I don't have any family who would help me. My mom has babysat my kids, let me think...she watched them for 2 hours that one day my husband and I saw the attorney about military benefits, and then that time I had to clean like a cyclone for when my mother-in-law came to visit for like 4 hours, and that time the night before my sister's wedding I had to go to Walmart to get a gift from my mom and myself and some things my mom needed, and that was an hour. My oldest daughter is 2 and a half. Mind you she watches my sisters kids at least once a week, and has since her oldest was born over 9 years ago. My inlaws are in Puerto Rico. My sister has retired in-laws in town. My mom still doesn't want to help watch my kids yet my sister's kids are a different story. Anyway, i can obviously rant about this because it's not right, but it is what it is. So I do what I gotta do.

You can tell my personality in detail from an internet post?



No worries.



Same thing as what? It is not the same as how your relationship works anyway.



No and I do not plan to have children. I do not want to change into someone like you nor do I want to give up my lifestyle and sacrifice things for children. But, my mother was not like you (after my dad left anyway) and neither are other mothers that I know (they have great relationships with their partners and fathers of their children). There are ones in your situation of course... I have no belief in spirituality so I am not sure what you are getting at with talking about spirituality.



Yes my mother had it very very tough in the early years after my dad left. And yes she did get help from government benefits and charity, there is nothing wrong with getting help... This was better than staying with my dad however, and the end result is a short period of unhappiness but a long time of happiness, rather than unhappiness forever being with an uncaring and inconsiderate man like my father. Why thirty years down the track? My mother was financially stable after about seven years. Seven years is a long time but not compared to the rest of her life. But, she had no choice in the end as my dad left and I think everyone realises although it was a real sh**** thing for him to do (he ran off with someone he met in Bible school and spend all their savings on cocaine...) in the end everything worked out better. I am not sure she would have left him eventually, would have to ask her.



I hope you can sort things out so that you have it better than you do now. I know you feel you are doing so but, I hope your children do not grow up in the relationship you have. I hope that does not sound offensive, hard to tell how it will be taken.

I never said that. All I said is you remind me of me. THat doesn't mean the Myers Briggs detailed definition, just that a lot of what you said are the same things I said years ago. I've grown up a lot since then.



It is. You are requiring your man to fill your expectations if he is to be with you. If he didn't man up to what you expect, you wouldn't have been with him all this time. Seriously, would you be with him if he wouldn't compromise? What would you do if he doesn't compromise on something of great importance? Oh, but he always compromises, but still, if he wouldn't, what would you do?



Well, you really wouldn't know what I'm talking about then. Things are different when kids come into the picture. If you aren't capable of making sacrifices for you children, then by all means don't have them. You can probably get your tubes tied if you wanted. On your mom, even you said you don't know what she would do if he didn't leave her, so maybe she would have been like me. Maybe not. But I promise you, falling out the plane or being pushed out the plane is not the same as jumping. Your mother did what she had to do, just like me. She was looking out for what she thought was your better interest at the time, not hers, not your dads. That's what I'm doing. Sorry if you prefer me to leave my husband, but I am more concerned about my children than your opinion.



Until you become a mom, you will never understand the pressures of motherhood. It's like you can claim you might jump out that plane when called to do so, but you won't know how you would be until you are standing on the plane. I do what I'm doing to maintain. If you have a better suggestion, by all means make it, but this paradigm about marriage and relationships is beautiful, but unrealistic. It's exactly what I thought it was supposed to be, and it is nothing like that. I've never seen it like that. I'm now discovering all the marriages I thought were perfect had many many many skeletons in those closets. If this is the worse thing my marriage goes through, then we'll be set.

Also, it was great your mom was able to rise above her situation and end in happiness. But what worked for her may not work for me. There's just so many variables that I can't really describe them all here. I've done the best I can to describe it, but it's one of those things where you just have to be here to know what I'm talking about. In the end, I don't know any mother of toddlers who would disagree that it's important to keep the house clean and stay on top of my game financially, domestically, and so forth.



Seriously, I don't think you know what kind of example i set for my kids. I'd rather teach them responsibility than to blow it off or avoid it. It's funny. When the house is clean, the kids are less apt to destroy it. When everyone respects the house and takes pride in the house, including the daddy, the kids miraculously do it too. Monkey see, monkey do. Now, they are too young for that abstract reasoning you are claiming will affect them for the rest of their lives (according to the textbooks, which could be wrong), but even then, I won't be with their father by the time they are old enough to have that reasoning if I have to treat him like a child. You are right, he's a third child. I can't live like that all my life. But I do what I do to maintain right now until this baby comes out, is breastfed, and it would be nice if I can hold off until potty trained (especially if he's a boy). I do think my kids will be happiest if their dad would just man up and be responsible, and that's my goal if I have to train him like Pavlov's dog because I want what's best for my kids. Not best for me. Not best for their daddy. Best for them. Hopefully, either I will have totally classically conditioned him to be a dad, or better yet, he'll wake up one day and realize the importance and gravity of the situation, whichever way, it would be nice if I don't have to treat him like a child anymore. My kids basically would have no idea if this happens within the next couple years. But if it doesn't, well I'm out the door, unless a better solution presents itself.

I can't believe I'm sitting her defending myself on making my husband share the load. Then to be accused of bullying as if a lazy ass husband is okay. I'm sorry, it's never okay for a man to make children and then make someone else handle all the work related to them. You people are nuts if you think that's okay. Shoot by your definition of bullies, the prison system, teh school system, etc. is all bullies. Then you discredit something like PETA when you are using that same extreme fanatic mentality. Cmon now. Rewards and Punishments are not bullying for children or dogs, but it is for husbands and wives. Mind you, I think PETA is crazy, irrational, and loony. Then to act like going on welfare is okay. It really should be a last resort. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for my mistakes or my failures. They surely shouldn't pay my way because I just decided my husband wasn't good enough and I can't try to change him because that would make me a bully. Please.

Yea but he does not mind compromising with me and I don't mind doing stuff for him in return. I have never had to use mind tricks to work with me on things. Our relationships are so far apart I cannot believe you are comparing them.



Sure. Whether or not you care about my opinion is irrelevant. This is an internet forum to discuss things, which I am doing. You gave advice to the OP which I strongly disagreed with. My mother might have been like you, but I am glad she was not. I am glad she got pushed. I don't have kids and it is posts like yours that make me really glad I do not.



Sure and I hope never to understand the pressures of motherhood. It sounds just awful. Given how good my current relationship is, I hope not to screw it up by having kids. But, I am young so things might change. I guess I should never say never (which is why I have not had my tubes tied, it is tempting however).



Well as you have already indicated you would not want your kids to have the relationship you have with your husband. That is not a good example.



Fair enough. That sounds like a reasonable plan of action.



Well your first post came across as horrible, even though your husband sounded like a jerk. You have retracted a lot of that and sound more reasonable.

I disagree that rewards and punishments are for husbands and wives totally, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

My mother has paid more tax in her life than she ever got in welfare actually. She did not choose to have her relatively well off husband leave her with no money. She could not force him to pay child support (he owes over $20k btw, and she will never see that]. Welfare was a last resort and I am glad there is that option for single parents when they are facing poverty.

You didn't answer my question on how you would handle things if your husband all the sudden changed to where he wouldn't compromise anymore. You really can't know for sure until you are in that situation, but you'd be in my boat where your options are to leave, stay and put up with it, or stay and change it. But to put up with it is crazy. And to leave or change it, well both are technically ultimatums and a form of bullying to use them, by your definition. Either way, you expect your husband to compromise.

The example you claim I make is not an example if the kids are too young to comprehend it as such. They are 1 and 2, not 15 and 16. They are very concrete thinkers right now.

This is no different than my first point except that I worded it better. If it makes the world sleep easier at night to word things better, then by all means....

Wonderful for your mom. I said welfare is a last resort. Your mother was forced into a situation where she had to utilize those benefits. They are there for those situations. I've been forced into it twice now. When my husband separated from the military, I was nine months pregnant, and his insurance dropped me (they are a military entitlement). And I couldn't get new coverage because it was considered a Pre existing condition, so the medical card paid it. Now I'm pregnant again. My husband just got laid off and his insurance just expired two days after I found out I was pregnant. Maybe I can force his insurance to cover the rest of the pregnancy, which I'll look into, because it is a pre-existing condition and he did have actual health insurance rather than a military entitlement, but at the same time, if they don't, I'll have to go back to that medical card. Meanwhile, the kids will be on the medical card until we can regain coverage. But if I left my husband right now, I'd be using a lot more than just the healthcare when I really don't need to if I stay with him. And it's a lot easier with my husband helping me out with the kids so that I can have someone to watch them when I go back to school. He's not on drugs. He's just a little lazy when it comes to his end of the deal. I push him to man up to his end. That's not bullying. You used some of those techniques on me in this argument that I use on my husband, so obviously it isn't that bad. All I'm doing is consciously using something that comes to most people instinctively.

Yes. A million times yes the prison system, the school system, american culture, british culture, australian culture, japanese culture, iranian culture, iraqi culture, kenyan culture, every human culture currently on the planet is sick with abuse and bullying. We have known this for thousands of years. Why does a humanity capable of the magnificent feats of technology we are capable of feel the need to act from a place of fear and prey upon itself? We have been given the wonderful gift of life and we are squandering it by routinely being abusive to others.

All of us. Every single day. I make no judgments of you for having entered into the relationship you are in, I make no judgments of anybody because I have no authority by which to judge from other than my own humanity which has lead me to be guilty of the same things every other human is guilty of. We are One Tribe. We are One People.

Dog training is the en action of authority by one being over another being, in many to most cases it is abusive, it is the responsibility of a rational human being to understand the needs and desires of the dog and act to reward them for positive actions and act to prevent negative actions from being possible. If the dog does something negative you are responsible for what it did. You took that authority over it, it is your problem now.

When you enter into a coercive ownership of your husband rather than a relationship of equals, you have taken on responsibility for every negative thing he does. You are now the one guilty of everything you ever let him do. Why would you choose to do this? You make a rational argument to them why you believe something is so, and let them respond in a rational manner. If they refuse to have an open conversation between equals as we are all participating in right now, that is not abusive.

When you start telling Saspie she is not your equal for she has never had children, this is a minor form of abuse. You are attempting to intimidate her into believing she has no place discussing child rearing because she's never been a mother. You know what she has been? A child. A human person. A responsible adult. I don't know what other requirements there should be for one to be considered an equal in any debate. Any debate about any topic, equals. Some might be better informed, but better informed is just better informed, if they make an argument that is wrong for it lacks information you have, you have a responsibility to share that information in a rational logical manner.

Rewards are not bullying, punishments are bullying. Repercussions are not bullying. If you don't act as a responsible adult and fulfill the obligations to which you agreed by having children, the repercussion is that you will be removed from the sphere of influence over said children. It is not a punishment, we are not seeking out a negative stimuli to coerce into line with expected behavior, we are setting the framework by which we plan to operate. The repercussion may seem punishing, but the context in which it came about changes it from abuse to simply being the natural process by which things occur.

If my dog keep crapping on the floor, I stop allowing him on to the floor. I don't wait for him to crap on the floor so I can yell at him about it. I reward him for crapping in appropriate places. He comes to understand via natural harmony the manner in which to behave. To seek methods to step outside the natural harmony, to make the statement with ones actions that they take it upon themselves to act outside the great integrity, is to become a person of abuse. This is the only spirituality I know of. One Tribe. YHWH, Allah, Odin The All-Father, Gaea The Earth Mother, The Eightfold Path, The Great Integrity. They all speak of the same thing. Zoroaster spoke of the eternal struggle between truth and lie and said that the purpose of all creation is to preserve asa. To preserve the truth. The way in which humanity does this is by undertaking the precepts to participate in life and the exercise of Good thoughts, words, and deeds.

Tantybi, I also have a problem with you suggesting that all marriages are about setting and meeting the woman's expectations rather than true compromise. Many marriages are, in fact, compromises between two people. I'm sorry that yours is not and that you have to resort to the tactics that you do (whether it's called bullying or conditioning). But it certainly is not true for everyone, so stop trying to imagine that all marriages are like yours or we are living in "la la land."

I also hate it when women use the "you're not a parent so I automatically discount your opinion" tactic. My wife hates it, too. She hated it before she was a mom, and she continues to hate it now that she is. She believes that it is borne out of the insecurities of being a parent. There are so many nasty things that parents do... to each other and sometimes to their children, that are borne almost entirely out of our insecurity.

Sorry I missed this. Yes I would leave him if the relationship was not making me happy (but after seeking a solution together first]. I have done so in the past in crappy relationships and would do so again. I rarely need to compromise with my partner about anything as we get on great so I am not using an ultimatum against him to make him do what I want nor bullying. An ultimatum is a final demand. I have never made a final demand of him. If you cannot see the difference between how I relate to my partner versus how you relate, that is quite problematic. You seem to think the marriage is all about making the other person do what you want. I see a relationship as a way to enjoy someone's company, share goals together, support each other when we have troubles, have a lot of awesome sex with and to be best friends with __ basically share our life together. It is very different to seeing a partner as a child to use Pavlovian tricks against.



Sure. Hopefully you do not set this example for them as they get older.



I still think your relationship is really messed up and fair enough, that's your choice. But don't make out like it is acceptable for other people to use your methods or put up with the marriage you have. It's not. You put forward your methods as advice for the OP. I think the advice was truly awful.



What techniques have I used on you? I have used no techniques on you to my knowledge... I do not have the capacity to use psychological tricks on people at all. I have no idea what kind of action on my behalf would elicit certain responses from you. Your assertion is ridiculous. I have given you my opinions of what you have said. You can ignore them if you so choose. I fail to see how this is using a 'technique' such as what you have described.

First off, I don't choose to be held accountable for my husband's actions. Society chose that for me. When people come to my house and see it a mess, they think there is something wrong with me as if my husband and children don't live here and that I'm the only one making a mess and therefore have ownership to cleaning it up. I don't agree with it at all. It's just the way it is.

Second, I don't punish my husband. i have used negative reinforcement techniques, but what woman doesn't walk around acting like a b***h when she's unhappy about something? That's not bullying, and to say it is is ludicrous.

Third, a woman who doesn't have kids has no idea what I'm talking about with parenting, and neither do men who don't have kids or refuse to show up to handle theirs. That doesn't mean they are not my equal as much as they just lack some insight on the topic. I could try to explain to you that don't sleep a lot, but nobody really understands sleep deprivation if they've gotten a decent nights sleep. Surely, they often compare it to when they had to stay up that one or two nights for something not realizing moms tend to hit this for years...not days, not months, but freaking years of sleeping less than 4 hours at time. How can you possibly relate to that unless you have been there and done that? I'm sorry, you guys are equals, so therefore, you know exactly what I'm going through because you are allknowing. That would be like me telling my best friend that I know what she's going through having lost a child to ARDS at the age 2 because I lost my father. That would be unfair of me to say that, just as it is unfair for you to say what you are saying to me. She is entitled to her opinion, yes, but when I see that opinion is obviously lacking variables to which she will never ever be able to consider until she's been there and done that, I'm going to merely point that out.

Here's something for you to think about, and I forget who said it but it might of been Thomas Hobbes, but it was, "If all men are equal, then nothing would be prized."

Last edited by Tantybi on 10 Jul 2009, 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry about that. I believe the man is equally entitled to his expectations, but we haven't really been talking about a man with problems with his wife as much as the opposite.

The OP stated a problem similar to mine. I told her how I'm solving mine. She doesn't have to like it or try it. She can continue living with her problems or leave her man, and if she finds a better solution than those already offered to the table, then by all means I hope she hops on this thing and posts it.

I didn't say all marriages are like mine or you are living in lalaland. I said certain things happen in marriages and those who suggest otherwise are living in lalaland.

The tactic you claim I use? Wow, were you not the one telling me in another post that models (i.e. paradigms) do not really relate to real life. That's all the woman has to work from, a paradigm created in her mind, in her opinion. Yeah, I discount it when I realize it in no way relates to real life.

Exactly. You would do something very similar to what I'm doing that you so strongly believe against. IN fact your opinion on the subject contradicts itself. Leaving a man because he doesn't fit your expectations is okay, but telling him you are going to leave him if he doesn't change is bullying.

Don't make out that it's unacceptable to use my methods. You are not God and you got to remove yourself from that pedestal you think you stand on.

Your techniques? Let's see, instead of just being, I feel this and I feel that, you are saying, You are wrong. You've brought my kids into it, by how I'm setting the example, which is a form of guilt because it's saying that what I"m doing is bad to my kids in your opinion. Like maybe if I thought about my kids I would change my mind and cave in to say you are right and I am wrong. You also point out many times how your mom is better than me because she got dumped and didn't have to be in my situation (which our men are two different stories as mine isn't cheating on me with another woman nor does he have a cocaine addiction), and you do not wish to be me, and because of me, you do not wish to have kids. That's insulting and also a form of serious bullying and abuse. If you talk like that to your husband, you are worse than me. IN fact, the idea that you talk like that to me makes you a little worse than me. I have never pretended that you are such an awful person that I'm glad I'm not you.

I think people here don't understand that at this stage this is not a man-woman relationship anymore, but a partnership for the children. Tantiby said something to that effect in her first post about it. Of course it's no way to treat your romantic partner, but it certainly is a brilliant solution to the kids' needs, in view of the serious limitations of parenting from the father. Besides, the example that children learn is how much the mother respects herself, not the details of her relationship patterns.

Tantiby, I applaud you wholeheartedly.

And those concerned with the example to the kids: you seem to forget that the example is being set by BOTH parents, mainly THE FATHER, who prefers to be another child in the household than become a suitable parent to the kids he fathered.

Both leaving him and giving in to him are the same ineffective solution: in both cases, the husband gets away with not parenting HIS kids as he must.

I should also add that I'm not totally discrediting her opinion only because she's not a mom. She's made it very clear to me that she is missing many variables to my situation. One, she is not a mom. Two, she is in Australia and I'm in the states. For me to all the sudden pretend to be an expert on the culture in Australia would be crazy. Like i've said before, most of what I'm going through is a result of the pressures of society around me. She has no idea what those would be becuase she isn't in my society. In this society (where I am at), a wife is treated very different than a mom. People allow you to have flaws as a wife or a single woman. But as a mom, they can't make room for your flaws because they all affect your children, and for sake of the children, everybody has an opinion on how you are living your life all the sudden and must shove it down your throat. Many times, they are so wrong it's incredible that people can be so wrong. Like I've been told feeding my kid healthy amounts of formula is child abuse because she was overweight and I should have been putting a baby on a diet malnourishing her. That's just one example. I get a plethora of stupid judgements on a regular basis, and i also get a plethora of regular judgements on a regular basis that really don't matter (like a little clutter in the house). Again, unless you know where I'm coming from, then you will never understand the gravity of the situation to formulate an honest opinion on it. Many moms in the US do know where I'm coming from, like most of this can go without being said. Not all moms in the US do, but more moms in the US know where I"m coming from than wives in Australia. Don't get me wrong, I remember life before motherhood, well some of it anyway. And I do remember swearing i knew what I was talking about. I know that i had good advice for moms back then, and i'm sure Saspie has great advice for moms now. But in this specific case, she is obviously lacking insight to win her argument with me.

On a similar note, the Social Worker from the municipality called me last week and said she was going to inspect the case and see if I was doing enough for my old and sick father. She said she also had a list of demands from me I had to fulfill if I wanted her to be satisfied with how I care for my father. To which I answered:

"Even if I'm the lousiest carer in the world for my father, I'm a billion times better than his other daughter, who 5 years ago cut all contact with him and hasn't moved a finger to help since then. So any obligation you mention to me, you make good and sure that you mail me first a copy of a letter you send to my sister demanding she start taking care of our father AT ONCE or else you'll see her in Court."

The Social Worker backed down immediately, no obligations and no inspections or criticism.

People always have extra demands from the one who cares. It's a lot easier than making demands from the person who's failing to do their job because they could care less.

"Like yours" in that you have to resort to "certain techniques", not completely "like yours." Sorry that was not more obvious.

By "certain techniques" you meant this:

If, by psychological techniques, you mean engaging in open dialog, then I agree with you. However, I don't think that's what you mean. There's an air of subversity to the psychological techniques you describe. My wife and I do not play psychological games. Period.


No, actually. I said that a model cannot paint a complete picture. I never said that it does not relate to real life in some way. If that were the case, it would be a pretty crappy model.


It goes both ways, then. Your opinion is invalidated when you speak about anything that you have no experience dealing with. Your opinion about being on welfare: invalid. Your opinion about working an forty-hour a week job for a corporation to support your family: irrelevant. Your opinion about the nature of marriages whose core nature is nothing like yours: useless.

You used none of those arguments against her when you originally posted. You basically said, "You're a mom; you don't understand." To suggest that there were other factors at play here is, frankly, a bit disingenuous.

It also sounds like you care way too much about how others think you are raising your child. Is this what it's like to be NT? I think this plays perfectly into parental insecurity. We worry about what other people think about the way we raise kids as a sort of external validation that we are doing it correctly. Sure, if you have faith in society's opinion of you, I could see how this would be very hard. But when you know you are doing your best and giving your child what you consider to be the best, everyone else's opinion does not matter.