Have you ever been bullied on WP?

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I agree that when you hurt someone's feelings you should apologize, and if you didn't mean to then you should also explain that you didn't mean to. However, I do think that after the hurt person has calmed down some and can talk about it, that explaining to them that while something may have been hurtful or rude or even downright horrible that it might not have been bullying and why it might not have been. Bullying isn't the only thing that can hurt someone, and explaining that something wasn't bullying isn't the same as minimizing their pain or their feelings.

An example would be for kids if someone didn't invite you to her birthday party but invited everybody else in the class. If, in this situation, you had never had any kind of actual interaction with her and she hadn't done anything to you before, either positive or negative and then she brought invitations to school and handed one out to everyone in class except you then that is being mean, rude, bitchy, etc but I wouldn't call it bullying. It's still painful and horrible to go through, but pointing out that it isn't bullying is ok to do.

An example for adults may be you have a particular co-worker who is nice to everyone else and talks to them and jokes around with them, smiling and saying good morning and such, but with you she is cold and business like and just answers your questions and keeps her contact with you polite but detached and to the point. She's never said anything rude, never been outright mean, but it's obvious that she doesn't like you and you don't know why but she's not making fun or you or laughing at you or doing anything at all to you. She may answer you when you say good morning to her, but it's distant and strictly business. Polite but not friendly at all. She doesn't interfere with your work or mumble anything under her breath or look at you funny or anything, she just doesn't like you and keeps her distance. It makes you feel very uncomfortable and everybody else gets along with you and you are fine with them, but she's just a cold fish to you and only to you. That can hurt. It can make you feel very bad and make work very uncomfortable, but it isn't bullying either, and it can be construed as bullying by some people too. So pointing out that it isn't bullying but it's stilll a pretty smarmy thing to do would be ok, as long as you don't try and minimize the pain and imply "well that isn't bullying and if it isn't bullying then it's not worth complaining or feeling bad about". Of course it's something to feel bad about whether it's bullying or not.

I used those two examples because I've had both of those things happen to me and it hurt just as bad as bullying, which I've had LOTS and lots of done to me in the past, but even though it hurt just as bad and was just as mean, it wasn't bullying. Do you see what I'm saying? I hope I'm explaining it the way I want to lol. I think it's important to recognize when something is and isn't bullying because to label everything as bullying just minimizes actual bullying. That isn't to say that if it's not bullying it's not bad, or just as bad, or sometimes even worse because it can be, but to label everything bullying when it may not be minimizes it because people get so used to hearing about it that it becomes something that we get almost immune to hearing about. There are also different reasons behind bullying and different goals that the bully has which the SOB or b***h who is doing other things that hurt someone may not share, so they need to be handled differently and many times are resolved differently.

The kid who invited everybody else but me may not have thought about how it would make me feel that she didn't invite me when she handed them out in front of everybody, or she may have just wanted to get her point across to me that she doesn't like me. She might have never been taught about others feelings so she didn't think about mine. She might have thought that because I was so weird that I probably wouldn't want to come anyway, or maybe she just assumed that I wouldn't be able to come because it was very well known that I wasn't ever allowed to go anywhere because my mother was so overprotective that maybe (and this is a stretch, but it could be true - I never found out the reason) she just didn't bother inviting me because she already knew I couldn't come. I never had problems with her after, really and she never bullied me afterwards, we just didn't interact. Whatever her reasons were, she wasn't bullying me and didn't need to be punished for it. If she had made jokes about it or said things or encouraged other kids to say things or rubbed it in that I wasn't invited then that would be bullying and would need punishment. As it is, it would have been unfair to punish her. So it was important to not label it as bullying even though I was as hurt as I would have been had she done those things too.

In the second instance, she never liked me and I never found out why. She also never did anything overt but it made me VERY uncomfortable to work with her and it did hurt me when I'd try and try to get her to like me or at least smile at me or say something casual or even respond to me in a way that didn't make it obvious that she didn't like me although she was polite as could be. I was just as hurt and upset by it as I would have been if she had called me a name or made fun or me or did something overt, but she never did. She didn't increase her actions when she would see that I was uncomfortable, but neither did she decrease them. Nothing changed and she basically ignored me overall. If she was bullying me then she would have done something to add to my discomfort or something but it wouldn't have just been her acting like she was. If she had been actually bullying me then I could have gone to the supervisor and told her about it and she would have talked to Debra. She would have had to put a note in her file about it and in mine as well that I came to her about bullying. While there wouldn't have been punishment for that, she would have been told to stop it, but there wasn't anything to stop and they would have basically just had to tell her to be friendly to me, which they don't have the right to do, as she was being perfectly correct as far as the rules went. So, while I was uncomfortable and hurt, I wasn't being bullied.

I went on forever there it seems like, but I wanted to make sure I got the points out. Just because it's not bullying doesn't mean it doesn't hurt just as bad, and doesn't mean that it's just as wrong. Bullying is just a different kind of mean and may or may not be worse than other types or less than other types. I'm not saying to correct someone about whether they have been hurt or how bad they have been hurt, I'm saying that it's ok to correct them about what label to put on the other person's actions. Do you see what I'm saying?

nurseangela – An apology is “an expression of regret for having done or said something wrong”. As such, I don’t feel right apologizing to someone when I don’t believe what I said or did was wrong. It seems wrong to apologize if in this scenario (as if I am lying).

With that being said, if in fact someone’s feelings are hurt, I might say, “I am sorry your feelings are hurt”. But, that is different. As I don’t feel regret for what I did. Am I splitting hairs?

Never apologize--unless you actually did something wrong.

I agree 100%.

How it's worded makes all the difference. An example: Saying to me "I am sorry your feelings are hurt" doesn't say that you are sorry that what you said hurt my feelings, it only says that you are sorry that my feelings are hurt. That statement could mean that my feelings are hurt for any reason, but my feelings were hurt by "what you said" and not some other reason. A better way to say it would be, "I'm sorry what I said hurt your feelings because that isn't my intention to hurt you. However, we just don't agree on this subject". Then you both know the topic could be a problem and may not be able to be discussed again.

Your definition "an apology is an expression of regret for doing something wrong" means that you "regret" hurting your friends feelings - not for regretting whatever statement you said. Does that make sense?

I like the distinctions that are being made here. There is rudeness which is probably not bullying. There is meanness which may or may not include bullying. There is disagreement, which has often astonished me by erupting into flame wars and is called by exceedingly thin-skinned people bullying. There are threats of physical violence which should NEVER be tolerated. Because of the forums my son hangs around in, he is often threatened, and he laughs it off as trash talk. He will sometimes tease back, but only to men or to women who know him well. I'm glad to say he also understands why most women can't laugh off threats of violence. He says because he is scary-looking, he won't get on an elevator that has only one woman in it, because he realizes women live in a more dangerous world than men do, they don't know his heart, and he doesn't want to scare them. I'm proud of him.

I can't understand why simple disagreement should be called bullying, or be the instigation of name-calling and threats which I do consider bullying. I have been strongly disagreed with on WrongPlanet, which I thought was fine. Once I was told to go to hell, by an atheist. Heh. I was surprised that my soft reply did calm the guy down. I have been called sad and pathetic by some people, which is less fine, but still part of the world of jostling ideas, suppositions, and principles. If I push somebody's button and they erupt in anger, I find it best to quietly withdraw. But if anybody does choose to threaten me, I will take snapshots of the threats, I will report.

I've been glad that the moderators do a fairly good job on this unwieldy planet of blocking the bullies when it is brought to their attention. Obviously, they can't read every single post, so things will slip through.

It can be hard for us who prefer politeness to deal with those for whom trash talk is their love language. I don't like, but will tolerate when someone "yells" Get a clue! I am clueless, but telling me to get a clue won't give me one. I prefer patient explanation, but I also understand many people on this planet can no more give me that than I can get a clue. I guess the question is, how can we be patient with each other while simultaneously upholding boundaries of respect?

Some comments:

#1 - This wasn’t my definition. It was one I found via Google.

#2 – I agree that your response ("I'm sorry what I said hurt your feelings because that isn't my intention to hurt you”) is a better one. But, the likelihood that I personally would come up with that better response in the moment is fairly low. It’s something I might come up with sometime later.

#3 – I am a bit confused what this has to do with bullying. In my experience, those people who bullied me enjoyed harassing, intimidating or actually harming me. That was the intent. It wasn’t accidental. It was malicious and on purpose.

Inviting every child but one to a party may sometimes be bullying, and the definition of bullying includes excluding someone if there is an imbalance of power and it is repeated.

http://www.stopbullying.gov/what-is-bul ... efinition/

Excluding from a party might seem innocent. It's often not. The excluded person may not even be aware, but typically there is a lot of nasty talk.

I think the definition has changed and I agree with the change.

I've never understood why everybody assumes trolls and bullies are losers with a boring and sad life. No matter what can be most common in practice, people have free wills. Why is it so hard to imagine a strong and successful person, with a rich and fulfilling life, who happens to take healthy, hearty delight in shrewdly causing extreme pain and grief to random weak people as one of their many exciting hobbies? Maximizing the damage to the victim while minimizing the time and energy they spend to achieve it can be a stimulating challenge. A few successful and strong friends could even make a game of it, competing to crush the most weaklings the most effortlessly and wittily, and keep going about their busy, productive and rewarding lives as if all they'd done were to stomp a bunch of cockroaches.

My reluctance to accept the common assumption is mainly because, for me, it'd be a case of wishful thinking.

Spiderpig, those are interesting thoughts. I can easily see that as true for some bullies. I think it may be less likely to be true of members of WrongPlanet.

Never apologize, as it places you in a weak social position. This is because to many people, an apology is an admission of having committed a deliberately hostile act, and it makes no difference to them whether I deliberately insulted them or not. Such people seem to hold the erroneous belief that we are all responsible for each others' feelings. This is total bullsnot, since if it were true, they would take responsibility for my emotional state, and inspire in me feelings of joy and comradery. They would also apologize when they find out that they've hurt my feelings, but that isn't going to happen, because that would shatter their illusion of being archetypal Victim.

Thus, if someone says to me "You've hurt my feelings" they are more likely to hear me say, "The unpleasant truth hurts only those who prefer pleasant lies" or "No one can hurt your feelings without your full cooperation" than "I'm sorry".

The only exceptions to this are my wife and children. They matter to me, and I want them to be happy.

Unfortunately there is some bullying here, I think less than many places, though.

I also think it's important to recognize that when people bully they generally think of their actions as justified by something about their target, so they don't necessarily see themselves as bullying anyone.

I suppose I have an “old fashioned” view of bullying (i.e. harassment, intimidation, harm). I believe the current definition of bullying is way too broad. I don’t consider being excluded from a party to be bullying. Then again, the current definition does seem consistent with our overly politically correct culture.

I agree with you. Saying that something isn't bullying isn't the same as saying that it isn't painful or shouldn't be painful or offensive, etc. It's not saying that it's less painful or offensive than bullying either. There is nothing wrong with using the correct label for the type of behavior that is done to someone. Things that aren't bullying can actually hurt more and for much longer and leave more emotional scars than bullying does at times. Bullying isn't the worst thing that can be done to someone, so telling someone that they weren't bullied in a specific incident isn't minimizing their pain or offense any, nor is it meant to. It's simply clarifying.

Not inviting a kid to a party may be bullying or it may not, depending on how it's done and other factors. In the instance I described, it wasn't bullying. It was rude to pass them out in front of me and not give me one, and she may have not invited me because she was mean and wanted me to know that I was the only one not invited, but that doesn't constitute bullying.

If two people are in an argument and it gets loud and they both get angrier and angrier and shout at each other and in each other's faces and both are equally up there and bowed up ready to snap, it's not bullying when one hits the other in that situation. It's a fight and one person threw the first punch. There are plenty of instances where it's bullying, but one like I described isn't.

There are lots of factors involved in bullying. The fact that they aren't taken into account now and people judge what is and isn't bullying based on a feeling or on the fact that it seems similar to what would be bullying is using the same type of reasoning that is being used in another thread over autism terminology. It's seen as wrong to say someone "has autism" because you say someone "has" the flu or a cold or cancer or heart disease, etc. So according to that logic saying someone has autism is saying that autism is a disease like cancer etc so it shouldn't be said and anyone who thinks it's ok to say it is in some way insulting all of us. It sounds similar so with a little twist of logic and wordplay we can easily turn it into something that it's not. Just like we can turn rudeness or meanness into bullying.

It's all part of the constant hyperalertness toward anything that could be construed as negative in any way, and there are people who actively look for that and whose minds go directly to seeking out offense and maximizing everything. Not inviting a kid to a party is bullying, a 6th grade boy snapping a 6th grade girls bra strap because bras are funny is sexual harassment, saying that someone has autism is ableism, wearing a Lynerd Skynerd shirt with a rebel flag on it is racism, it goes on and on and on. Don't we have enough problems in the world without trying to create more of them where there aren't any? There is actual bullying we need to stop, there is sexual harassment that we need to handle, there is ableism that we need to correct and there is racism that needs to be ended once and for all, but these are not examples of it. We all have enough to be offended and hurt by without trying to come up with something else to send us all to therapy for.

I concur. Merriam-Webster defines a "bully" as "a person who teases, hurts, or threatens smaller or weaker persons". This is the definition I go with, although intent should be included so that the definition becomes ...

"Bully, (n): any person who intentionally teases, hurts, or threatens smaller or weaker persons".

Unfortunately, "hurt" is defined too broadly. True, feelings can be hurt, and some people seem more vulnerable to shaming than others, and bullies can pick up on this.

But merely disagreeing with someone else's opinions is not bullying. Neither is citing facts that contradict those opinions, nor is stating completely different beliefs from someone else's a form of bullying. And failing to comply with someone else's request is not bullying, either.

It is when a person is teased for his or her perceived weaknesses (i.e., calling a kid who wears glasses a "Four-Eyes" or calling another kid who is a little overweight "Fatso") that is bullying. This hurts, and the pain can last a lifetime.

Some people are just too damned sensitive, especially those who "read between the lines" to twist and distort what was said into a personal attack on themselves when no attack was made or even intended by what was said.

Thus, I believe that without intent, no bullying can occur. Unfortunately, some people seem to see intent where none exists, and to throw the label of "bully" around like it was so much confetti.

I wish those people would just go away.

Fnord, I got your PM and wrote you a response but it did that same thing to me so I can't PM you are all anymore either. I copied and pasted what was on the screen (minus my IP, I erased that and put x's there) and posted that as well. So, I can't answer you but I'm not ignoring you. It let me answer somebody else's PM though.

I'm this close to just taking a couple shots of Nyquil and going to bed lol. Parks and Recreation is on Amazon and I can lay there and watch it and be serene.