NT + AS Friendship Advice Needed (Age 40s)

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I have been reading and benefiting from the many thoughtful posts on this forum and now turn to this wonderful community for some advice. My apologies in advance for the length of this post; I have tried to keep it as short as possible so I may have stated things poorly in places. I am happy to provide whatever additional information I can, if someone would find it helpful.

I am a 40ish NT (more or less) female attempting to build a friendship and possibly a romantic relationship with a slightly older man whom I strongly believe has undiagnosed AS. We met online about 7 months ago (on a dating site) and met in person shortly thereafter. I think he is extremely smart, very witty, deeply kind, and all around just a very good person. He, in turn, appears to like me. He is a very gifted professional in a creative field, which I also happen to participate in. We also have other shared interests and values. So far, so good.

Despite all of the above, however, we’ve been together in person only about 8 times. After we first met, we also talked on the phone fairly often, but after a month or so, that stopped. We still hung out every few weeks during the first few months of our acquaintance (e.g., met for a drink, went for a walk) and were in touch via email. He was dealing with some serious family issues and a hectic work schedule during these months, so I did not insist that we spend time together, although I encouraged us to do so while acknowledging how tough things were for him.

Recently, however, we did not see each other for a few months. I kept in touch by email and invited him out a few times, without being sure if he would ever want to see me again. Thankfully, he finally responded in a concrete way and we had a very nice outing a couple weeks ago. It’s clear that we still like each other and we seem to have a friendship of sorts. He acknowledged that he is largely responsible for us not spending much time together. We intend to see each other again, but no firm plans yet.

I would add that his last serious romantic relationship was several years ago and did not end well. His previous relationship history also seems rocky. Although he is probably more socially inclined than I am, I don’t think he’s had much of a social life per se recently. He is well liked by his colleagues, but I don’t think he has close friends. He is close with a family member, but I am not sure how much he shares with this person. He admits he has some self-loathing that clearly runs very deep, which pains me to hear because he is just such a great person.

I really like him just as he is and want to be closer friends with him, presuming that’s possible. I also actually think we would be a good couple (with several caveats), but we’re obviously not quite there yet. Regardless, I am very patient and would just like to see what happens. So, any thoughts on the following:

*How do I best encourage him to be social with me without nagging or overly pressuring him?
*Similarly, how do I encourage him to be social without further enabling his own tendencies to withdraw or patronizing him?
*How can I best try to earn his trust, particularly when we don’t see each other very often?
*What should I NOT be doing at this point?
*How best can I show my friendship to him now, when we see each other only every few weeks or even months?
*How can I help make him feel safe(r) with me?
*Finally, how can I help him learn to be friends with someone again?

Thank you very much in advance for any feedback; I’m really trying to learn as much as possible that might help us. I have done a fair amount of reading on AS the past few months and have been able to use some of what I've learned, but the more insights I can garner, the better. Again, thank you.

You said he gave you very clear indications that he wants to continue the friendship, and I realized that what worked for me (I'm AS) is the other person was nicely assertive. So I think being "Friend Forward" might work.

By this I mean... you get used to taking the initiative. Find out what his interests are, combine it with what your interests are, know his energy limits, and you make the outing plans. I know that I rarely take the initiative, but really appreciate it when someone else includes me in their plans when they know I'd be interested.

To keep this healthy, of course, you need to communicate with him, find out his interests, limits, and frequency. For me, a big outing every three to four weeks is plenty, and just visiting in between. I prefer it if the decisions I have to make are few... do I want to go or not, rather than an offering of several different options in untold combinations. Shall we eat out or not? Of course, where to eat out is always fraught... that'll probably take some long term work. He may want to go to the same place every time, or like me have 4 favorite places and then you pick one of those that day.

Depends on how much he relys upon routine.

I think because I have an outgoing personae, people think of me as an initiator and I'm just not. So I've spent most of my life sitting at home wishing someone would invite me somewhere I'd like to go.

Thank you very much for your suggestions, which are helpful. As soon as I had the sense that he likely has/is AS, I realized that I would need to take the initiative and I have tried to do so in a nicely assertive way, with mixed success. I suspect my invitations have been either too broad (e.g., do you want to do this, this, or this whenever) or too narrow (e.g., I’ll be here at this time, please join), so I’ll try something in between (e.g., coffee today or tomorrow). He definitely seems to prefer meeting at certain places, so I do try to respect that.

One of the things I find most challenging is assessing the best frequency of contact. He works a ton (in part because of trouble with his organizational skills) and has repeatedly expressed his deep frustration with not having (or struggling to have) a more balanced life. So he definitely has the desire to be more social, but getting there from here seems very hard. I’ve had similar struggles with work/life balance in the past, so I do express my sympathy and support in an effort to be encouraging. What I don’t want to do is nag or appear to be controlling. He has indicated he’s been subject to that in the past and, as a strong-willed person, he resists/resents that approach, which I really understand.

On the plus side, as I noted, we do share a strong interest in his creative field. When I recently mentioned that I might become more involved in the field again, he was very quick to note I could be part of X or Y activities (which he leads) and encouraged me to do so. My joining those activities would not necessarily give us more one on one time together, but I sense that this might make a difference to him regardless, so I will probably try that as well at some point.

In fact, it may not be possible. For many people (NTs, I suspect) it's a matter of finding time. For me, it would be a matter of energy. Doing the job takes so much energy, there just isn't anymore to channel into 'extracurricular' activities. I need the rest of the day to be quiet and simple so that I can recharge for the next day. Absolutely nothing ever happened in the evenings of the days I worked except dinner and reading, maybe one or two chores around the house. But I had major resistance to going out again, or having long discussions or anything else that required more stimulus.



Yes, I would encourage that. Aspies tend to have functional relationships... we come together through doing a common task because of our interest in the task. It provides a very useful and comfortable structure to operate in. We 'do' together rather than 'be' together. Or at least I do.

I don't know if you saw it, but I started a thread "AS and telephones" and the response was pretty unanymous... Aspies hate phones. So don't expect much in that direction.

In your earlier post you said that he is...


I would take that appearance with a grain of salt. People probably think I'm pretty socially inclined, and for an Aspie I am, but compared to an NT... definitely not. It's a personae adopted to function, it's not untrue, but its truth is limited. For example, I enjoy gallery openings, but the amount of stimulus at a large one, the interaction necessary, the energy that I use in a single evening leaves me wiped out the following day... I work alone in my garden and I take a long nap. So I am only up for a couple gallery openings a year.

It's a lot about energy management... I have a quiet day, I have the time schedule worked out for getting ready that evening and if everything goes smoothly it saves energy. I go to the gallery opening and 'spend wildly' of my energy mingling and chatting and immersing myself in the colors sounds textures tsunami of the crowd and artwork, and then fairly early I go home, go to bed and have my quiet restorative day following. Very gentle with the sensory system/psyche. If that happens, I'm good to go the next day after the 'retreat' day. If it doesn't I'm as grouchy as a 2-year old in need of a nap.

Just imagine you have chronic fatigue syndrome and everything you do requires tremendous energy, so you have to plan and schedule wisely.

When I do something with a friend, especially something intense, I prefer some re-charge time, often several weeks. Busy NTs seem to do the same thing.

As DonkeyBuster said "Aspies hate phones".

I usually don't hang out with friends for more than an hour unless there is a specific purpose.

Picking activities can be tricky. I like some loud activities with lots of people, as long as there aren't a lot of non-functional social interactions. Hanging out and chatting with people and having fun is pure heck <grin>. I'm also really happy to be with a friend and not saying anything or interacting. If I have a purpose, I can put up (and even enjoy) almost anything. Just like my German Shepherd.

"What do you WANT to do" is a horrible minefield.

I have an NT partner who has complementary personality characteristics, so we each have our specialties in the relationship. I work by myself most of the day, so I don't have problems with us living together. If I went to a regular job every day, it would be hard, and we might need to live apart.

People can tell me just about anything if it's sincere and direct, without extra emotional content. Some people get really defensive. In general aspies seem to deal with candid, blunt personal statements better than NTs do.

I hope this gives you some insight. Your post is great, and you have a great attitude.

DonkeyBuster, thank you for the follow up and your insights about energy v. time. I am a strong introvert, so this is one aspect of AS that I think I can truly appreciate since I also need a fair amount of down and alone time to recharge. Perhaps for this very reason I have been able to stay with this relationship and not be quite as frustrated or irritated as other NTs might be. My sense is that the hiatus in our meetings was directly related to his need to retreat and recharge after a very stressful few months. I give him a lot of credit for even trying to stay in contact with me, which I can imagine might not be easy to do.

Thank you as well for your thoughts about functional relationships and the do v. be distinction. This does help me understand things better and helps validate my sense that he was pretty excited about the possibility of us doing something together that we both love.

As for being social, he actually is pretty good at chatting and can run on at times, but only when he's relaxed and I can certainly tell when he is not. I am sure he's learned to mask his anxieties fairly well in most social settings, but I know him well enough now to see when he's struggling with that. I am hoping as we get to know each other better, he may feel more comfortable with me and be able to relax more easily.

Duke666, thank you as well for your thoughts and the kind words. Since I first thought he might have AS, I have tried to be more direct and specific, and I think that's helped. I am careful to avoid open-ended invitations. For an NT, I think open-ended-ness can come across as flexibility, but I can see how it would be anxiety provoking for others. The next time we see each other, I will try to directly ask him about frequency of contact so I can better understand what will or won't work for us. He's been very patient with my nudging him about being social so far, so I think he might welcome a chance to discuss this more openly.

Thank you again for your thoughts; I am deeply appreciative.

yeah, straight talk. Adult to adult. I like that.
I've noticed some NTs here start 'mothering' their AS partners... unhealthy dynamic for both.

You do seem to have a good attitude and understanding. That's great.
Sounds like a good beginning.

An interesting conundrum - one assumes you have earlier experience with aspergers sufferers?

That your friend doesn't know about it adds complexity to the problem: my partner and I formed a relationship while neither of us knew of it. It wasn't until later that the diagnosis came into the picture, saving us from a hell of mutual misunderstanding.

Anyway, what worked in my case was receiving an email, proposing place and time.

That was fifteen years ago, and we're still together. The diagnosis stuff only came along in the last five of those.

DonkeyBuster, thank you for the encouragement; I do hope we're off to a good start. And yes, I am very much trying to avoid any “mothering” of him, which would be awful for each of us. I do feel protective of him at times (particularly when others treat him poorly in response to his social difficulties or clumsiness), but I would feel the same for any other friend who was having a hard time.

Petred, thank you for your suggestion; I am trying to be as specific as I can be when inviting him out.

As for previous experience specifically with AS, I actually don’t think I have any, although I was certainly aware of it. I just found some of his behavior to seem to be very much at odds with who I knew him to be. While trying to think about why that might be, I happened across an article written by someone with AS and many things about it rang true. So I’ve been reading and learning about AS ever since. As you say, knowing that someone likely has AS makes a world of difference. I don’t think we would still have a relationship of any kind if I did not know he likely has AS.

I'd consider that pretty normal. As long as you don't jump in and 'save' him... unless he asks.

I think you might find "Counselling for Asperger Couples" by Barrie Thompson very helpful. It has very useful suggestions for how to work with the cognitive differences between an NT and an Aspie. It'll be a good support to you, and he doesn't have to know about it.

He has yet to ask for my help with anything and uses humor quite deftly to defuse those moments when others might make fun of or criticize him, but I sense these incidents still linger for him after they're over. Yet this is decidedly not a rescue mission for me and the best I can do for him and us right now is focus on being a good friend to him. If we get closer and I am able to earn more of his trust, he may (or may not) see me as a source of support of whatever stripe. Whether someone is AS or NT, I think being alone for a long period of time makes you adjust to doing things solo and without support, so I think that's part of what's challenging as well - for us both.

Thank you very much for the book recommendation; I'll add it to the list. Any feelings one way or the other on Ashley Stanford's Asperger Syndrome and Long-Term Partnerships?

You sound like one of the few healthy people on the planet! =0) I suspect your observation that the negative events linger is true... not only are many of us primed by lots and lots of past experiences just like it, but there's that perseveration aspect of mind... the broken record that can't get shut off. Intellectually I can tell myself let it go, it's done, it's not worth getting into... but the damn thing keeps running over and over. It's another one of those things that can make me kind of irritable, primed for a Pop! if one more irritating thing happens. It's like that stupid jingle that you can't get out of your mind, only it's negatively emotionally loaded besides annoying as hell. So when some poor innocent SLAMS the g-ddamn door... "Off with their head!"



No, we really haven't explored many of the marriage books... we're a lesbian couple and not only does it get tedious reading about him and her, a lot of it doesn't apply.

It sounds like you've got a very level head on your shoulders, and so I'd just trust your own instincts. You're open to information about an unusual situation and have the ability to apply and adjust and re-evaluate as things progress. So I'd say...
You're good to go!

I do think he's prepped at virtually all times for things to go badly and I suspect the feedback loop running through his mind doesn't help much in thinking that a particular situation or person might be different. So in addition to being patient, I also am careful to be consistent in what I convey to him about what I think and feel about him, and just my own approach to things generally. Maybe over time this will help; certainly can't hurt.

I hope I'm healthy and try hard to be level headed, so thanks very much for your vote of confidence. We'll see how things unfold. Thanks again for the wonderful feedback.

For what it is worth, I never really successfully initiated and pursued a relationship with a woman. Those with whom I've had relationships all had to pursue me and push the relationship to get it established.

I can tell you that one of the most extraverted women that ever pursued me was very good at just appearing and sweeping me into whatever plan she had. I never really got close to her though because I just didn't feel a comfortable level of trust with her. She was so social that I could not even begin to keep up.

I definitly agree with the idea that functional interactions are easier. Task driven interactions have always been much easier for me. I worked with my wife before I started dating her and that gave me a functional reason to communicate with her and get to know her.

I hate talking on the telephone in general, but I especially hate it for non-task driven purposes. My wife used to call me literal 5 to 10 times a day every day and it would drive me insane. Just two days ago she forgot to take her mobile phone with her in the morning. When I saw her later she asked me how my day was going. I told her that for some unknown reason I had been unusually productive. She paused for a few seconds then asked if that was because she had not called me all day... I was wise enough to dodge the question.

Nonneurotypical, thank you for your thoughts. I am definitely aware that I need to be the one to initiate contact and issue invitations. I admit to having been tempted to (as you say) sweep in and drag him out. I have not done so in part because that's just not my personality and in part because I think he's been subject to that kind of treatment in the past, which I don't think lends itself well to building trust. He is very strong willed and independent, so I want very much to respect who he is and a constant drip of emails or calls just would not work.

What I am trying to do, though, is be a good friend to him and encourage him to take steps towards having the more balanced life he very much wants. I can help make the conditions for being social and having low key fun possible and comfortable, but I will not force him to venture out (e.g., you must go to dinner with me or I'll stop being friends). What he wants to do is really up to him, as it should be. And this may be the first time someone is really giving him a chance to do that, so we'll see how it goes.

Yes, we are prepped for things to go badly because that's been our experience. I've lost count of the friends that have turned on me... I've had people I loved yelling at me that I was too difficult, too controlling, too rude, nobody likes you, too arrogant, refused to get along with others...

So please, if things don't work out, just say they're not working and leave. Don't chew him out and remind him what a defect the world thinks he is. Trust me, he's already heard it.