Husband Issues

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My husband and I are having some issues with our marriage. He is NT and I am in the process of finding out whether I have AS, so for the purposes of this topic it's safe to assume I do (it's looking more and more likely all the time, just lacking money for testing, etc). So we'll just say this is an NT male + AS female situation, which I know is rare. Other details so yall can have a good picture of the situation: I am 22 and he is 24, we've been married now for just over a year and dated for quite a while before that, and we have no kids at this time.

Because I'm (for the purpose of this conversation) AS and he is NT, I have certain needs and areas in which I require extra patience and understanding. Here are some examples:

Me: I have extremely, painfully low self-esteem that can sometimes result in self-loathing.
Him: He literally never gives me compliments, and thinks he shouldn't have to tell me good things about myself because I should somehow magically know he feels this way. He doesn't, however, have any problem with calling me out on things I do wrong, which are numerous.

Me: I am hypersensitive to pain and other uncomfortable physical sensations.
Him: He thinks I should just "get over it," and doesn't mind telling me so.

Me: Sex hurts! I love it though, because I love being that close to him, I crave that intimacy, and a lot of specific physical stimulation, such as skin on skin or rough hands, is actually magnified pleasure for us Aspies rather than magnified pain.
Him: Rather than have sex be an expression of our love, he thinks of it as some steamy banter in which sexual pleasure is the only thing to be had. He will be rough with me, and I will comply and pretend to enjoy it even though it hurts, because I feel like a horrible wife for caring more about my own pleasure than my husband's. Because I am bisexual and have wanted a threesome in the past, he is also constantly making references to imagining other girls are present, specific girls, which makes me feel he would rather be with them than me, and that I alone don't fulfill him. He makes me feel like I'm a f*** buddy rather than his treasured wife.

Me: I'm needy. I'll admit it. Whether it is the female manifestation of AS or something else like BPD, there is something physically different about me that causes me to require lots of attention and affection.
Him: He will never initiate anything physical outside of sex, such as holding my hand, cuddling, kissing, massaging my shoulders, wrapping me in a bear hug. He never talks about me in public or to his friends, and never tells me how much I mean to him or what he likes about me or any of that. He doesn't miss me when I'm away, or get annoyed when I work ten hours instead of seven. He has no passion, no adoration, no emotion any stronger than "meh."

Except...

Me: I can get very depressed, and worse than that I get anxious and have extreme meltdowns in which I have no control over my words and actions. Sometimes I can't even speak, just wail and moan and struggle to breathe.
Him: Rather than doing things I have told him are definite ways to get me through the meltdown and control me (at least a little) and help me ride out the agony until it's over, he makes himself a contributing factor, taunting and yelling and insulting me the whole time, which of course prolongs and magnifies the situation. When it's over, he refuses to take any kind of responsibility for the situation, and magnifies my guilt and shame by blaming the whole thing on me. As if I don't hate and blame myself enough already. This is the kind of thing that I am afraid will destroy us.

There are other factors of our relationship in which AS/NT doesn't play a part and shouldn't be taking place in any relationship. Such as the fact that because we both work and go to school, we are only home in the evenings, at which time he plants himself at his computer or xbox and on an average day, I am lucky to get 15 or 20 minutes of meaningless conversation and maybe cuddling before bed. I can't speak my mind or talk about anything serious. I am constantly walking on eggshells so I don't piss him off. Almost anything I say to him is considered nagging.

And before anybody suggests that he doesn't know that I have any of the above issues and that I just need to talk to him, I HAVE!! In the nicest, most gentle way I could. With the best timing I knew how. He considers it insulting that I don't see everything he does do for me. Which, at this point, I really think is minimal.

I work my butt off as a full-time student and almost-full-time employee. The house is impeccable and you could set your watch to my laundry day. I balance the checkbook and pay the bills (because my filing system is, to him, mind-bogglingly organized). I give him unasked-for backrubs and make him sandwiches (even though he was originally the agreed-upon cook of the house). I ask him how his day was, how he is feeling, what he needs of me to be happy, what I can do for him. I shower him with compliments and he knows I adore him. I have lots and lots of flaws, yes, and they're pretty massive. But all these things I do without complaint. And more than that, I love my husband with a passion that few people could imagine.

Ever since AS came up as a possibility, I have tried to discuss it with him several times to talk about the possible reason why my mind might work as it does, and things we could do in light of it to make life easier for both of us. He brushes me off and doesn't take it seriously. He says that it doesn't matter why I have the issues I have, I just need to get over it. That I should be strong enough for it not to affect me in the way that it does. He doesn't think the fact that I may place on the autism spectrum, of all things, warrants a single change in our lifestyle and relationship.

I know I outlined a lot of his flaws. But he really is a good man, and a saint to put up with me for so long. He doesn't do any of the above to be malicious. To be honest, his biggest flaw is his apathy. He will admit it, but refuses to do anything about it.

If everyone has a soulmate, which you may or may not believe, if everyone has one person on this earth that they were meant to be with, I know that he is not mine. It is either someone else entirely, or him in the future after a lot of growing up by both of us. But I'm ok with that. Whether he is the man I'm supposed to be with, he's the one I, without a doubt, want to be with.

But I'm getting exhausted. He doesn't understand me, and doesn't care to. I need so much that he is not giving me, that he thinks I'm wrong and unreasonable to want. I just want more than anything to be happy with him. Why is it that everyone else ends up with a fairy tale and I am stuck in this hopeless apathy, this farce of a happily-ever-after. Why do I crave so much to be adored and desired by my husband, and why does wanting these things make me feel like such an ungrateful and selfish failure of a wife?

Last edited by Dernhelm23 on 08 Jun 2010, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think you should be speaking with a marriage counselor about these issues.

Umm, the way you describe him he does sound like he hasn't grown up. And he seems to take you for granted in the way little boys take their Mums for granted.

But yeah, I'm sure his perspective would be different, and so what Chronos said for sure is the best thing to do.

This was more or less my original reply:

But then I thought about things a bit more. This paragraph triggered me off.



My bf's not apathetic at all, but we still run into difficulties in this area. I've come to the conclusion that you can explain until you're blue in the face what your triggers are/ what will calm you down and people will still act the same way in the same circumstances. NTs can be just as aspie-like as we are .,. I imagine your meltdowns make him just as upset as you are and it's hard to be reasonable and calm if the other person isn't (even if deep down you know it's the sensible thing to do). On the otherhand, he definitely has no right be playing the martyr- he sounds just as bad!

I think there in may lie the confusion; he's having his cake and eating it. He gets to play saint and be a sinner. You're playing into this idea yourself though, by telling him what to do, and how to help you etc etc. acting like you are some kind of defected creature and only a caring wonderful person will understand you. It's no wonder you're frustrated when you've played yourself up to be this 'pariah', and yet he still hasn't taken up his martyr role properly and hasn't actually been supportive. So drop the roles. Be your own 'obnoxious' selves when you argue and at least then no one will have the moral high ground!

You're not perfect (nobody is), and sometimes you will be more in the wrong than other times. Everybody has faults. I know that's a no brainer, but still, it does help to remember that. I know personally I tend to have a love-hate relationship with myself. Sometimes the low self esteem gets too much and I desperately refuse to feel like s**t anymore, so everyone who disagrees/argues with me, or who I view as 'superior to me, must be in the wrong and bad people.. but then they're not, so it must be me... and back and forth it goes..

I'm really trying to get my head around the concept that I can still be a total pain sometimes and 1. not a be a failure of a human being and 2. still like myself. It's tricky, but what actually helps is letting others have their faults and still liking them despite it, and sometimes even because of it (it can be a relief knowing they're just as much of a pain as you are). And sometimes disliking people just because of personality clashes. It's all ok. Again, there's probably people reading this and going "duh Lene..", but it's a fairly new concept to me.

I know I have a tendency to polarise the people I'm closest to too, so my parents or siblings are either awesome or the complete opposite... now I try to see them as both; for example, yes, my brother may be a jerk sometimes and a total socialite, but he's friendly and would help anyone out who needed it... things like that... and not liking someone sometimes doesn't make them or you a bad person.

So maybe for your boyfriend, the trick isn't to keep telling him what will stop you from melting down, but accept that you will meltdown sometimes and so will he, just in different ways. Maybe you will be able to work out some rules (no swearing or door slamming) or maybe not.

You could see it as him being too apathetic (and then, the opposite self view when you're feeling low is that you may be too highly strung) or you can believe that you are both normal decent people who have habits that annoy each other. Like pretty much every couple on the planet.

So, that's why I changed my post. My initial reaction was 'what an as*hole! Dump him!' etc.. but I think the likelihood of that happening is low since your own self esteem is so low as well and you may be scared of never finding another person.

I'm guessing completely (I admit it), but I wonder if you just want people to recognise that you aren't the villain of the relationship. Which is fair enough, and you're not. I don't even know you and I can tell you you're not. And he's probably not 100% villain either, but you'll never be able to tell how much he really is unless you manage to disconnect your sense of virtue from his. otherwise you're own self worth will just see saw up and down continuously, relative to his.

On a practical note (if you've had the patience to read through all that) stop cooking for him if that's his job, make him pay his own bills, and refuse to have sex if he's hurting you. This is simple! Stand up for yourself a bit, because neither of you should be martyrs to this relationship!

(hope some of that made sense!)

Ok so I'm really pissed off because my computer decided to randomly shut down and I lost all of this fairly lengthy response. THIS is why I hate forums. >.<

Cliff's notes of what I had before:

Thanks for your responses. I really appreciate the input into the situation, but it reminded me of something I forgot to mention in the first post: As to the counseling issue, since we each have therapists of our own (I have been seeing mine for several months now and he has been going to his for a few weeks), they each decided it would be a good idea for the four of us to get together for marital counseling once he had a little more time with his therapist. Unfortunately my counselor just had to take an indefinite leave of absence so I have to start all over with a new one. Which is exhausting enough as it is. So I don't know if we should just wait for me to find a new one that works, spend enough time with him or her so he or she can get to know me, and then let the four of us meet at that time, or just randomly go to someone totally new who doesn't know us, or something else entirely. Advice on that subject would be appreciated as well. Though I should probably add that our money is limited, thus are our options.

Lene, yes your post was long but I really appreciate it. It helps for someone to understand, at least on some level, and makes me feel not quite so alone.

I REALLY appreciated this description in particular, the fact that someone else knows something of the mental/emotional back-and-forth that is probably the most torturous aspect of this whole dilemma...the Smeagol/Gollum alternating outlook of "they're so mean to us, they hurt us, they don't understand us, the cold cruel people, precious" and "of course they don't, you miserable wretch, we deserve it, and we hates them, gollum!" In non-Tolkien-esque words, basically not knowing who to hate and blame more, others or myself. I think that prolongs the meltdowns and anxiety more than anything, except perhaps the inability to communicate such thoughts. I know I'm kind of missing the point that we're talking about, but it was a huge relief to read that in someone else's words.

You seem to have a pretty good understanding of the dynamics, and your advice made sense and looks sound to me. I guess my next question is, even if we do get counseling as yall suggested, and even if my perceptions and the roles we play changes, what can I do to help him to the point to where he is not quite so closed to my point of view, and to where I'm not just bouncing off words to an unsympathetic wall but what I say actually penetrates and changes something? Is there something I haven't thought of? Do people typically have such a barrier of misunderstanding and listening without hearing?

Today was a good day. I appreciate all your encouragement and advice.

Has he always been like this?

I can relate to your guilt feelings. I always feel like I'm doing wrong whenever I start making any kind of claims at all on a spouse. I think it's best to fight the guilt and carry on. Your needs don't seem like unreasonable ones.

I agree that counselling could do a lot of good, if you can find the right counsellor. Hopefully somebody who knows about AS and can reinforce what you're trying to tell him, and also maybe find out why you don't seem to figure in his life as much as might be expected in a marriage.

Dear Dernhelm23,

I am a female Aspie and have had relationships with NT men, too. The issues you describe are familiar to me.
To me it seems that your husband is a "typical male person" and that a certain part of your conflict is not just only the AS/NT, but also the female/male thing.
Even if we, the female Aspies, are perhaps more strategic and logical than NT women, a part of our souls is as vulnerable as of everybody else.

I explained carefully, repeatedly, my feelings, my thoughts, my wishes in my relationship(s) and suffered strongly from this, the same, I would say, male reaction like you do.
I know that feeling of guilt for being different, not to be able to fulfill my partners needs, never to be enough, working so much (like you studying and earning money).
I closed down after a time and became sad, unapproachable and agressive.

There is not a lot of advice I can offer, just a bit understanding.
(Sure it is a very good thing that both of you are in therapy with option for couple counselling.)
There is just one: listen to your body. Your body tells you a lot. If sex hurts, don´t have sex. You hurt yourself to your inner core.
There is a strong voice in yourself that tells you what is ok for you in this moment.
Trust it. It´s like a beacon in the night.
It helped me a lot to find out about the relationships I wanted to have.

I am sorry to say but you can´t help him. He needs to listen for his own, because he wants to do so, because he is interested in your view of the world.

Nothing you do will change him. He has to change for himself, because he wants it.
No woman has ever changed a man, not by being nice, not by being rude.

Yes, people have quite often a barrier of misunderstanding. And the kind of misunderstandings you both have as a couple are at least a bit a typical conflict between men an women. (The AS/NT adds some dynamit, for sure.)
At least we Aspies are a bit more able to communicate clearly and honest. (That´s an advantage I am thankful for.)

Work, grow, be kind to yourself! You are on your way

A warm hug (if you want)
Salt

To me, he sounds just as likely to have AS traits as you. Perhaps you both do. That is the case with me and my husband. I've read that purely NT men rarely marry AS women, that most of these men turn out to have AS, ADD, OCD or some traits thereof.

In my case, some of our symptoms and sensory issues are frustratingly incompatible with each other's. We love each other, and recently celebrated our 13th anniversary. However, its been a real struggle. Each of us has things we know hurts or annoys the other, and hard as we try, we can't change. Just talking about it and changing the things we can, has helped. We also take time apart for our separate interests and to recharge, as well as time together to do normal couple things. We have a lot of problems whenever one or both of us works long hours and when I was in school full-time...that's probably a big part of it too. Oh yea, and as I've ranted on here many times before: as much as I love him, living together is often just too much for me and I wish we didn't...or at least had more separate living quarters. I'm somewhat of a neat freak and he's a slob. One of those ongoing struggles I mentioned.

Ok I KNEW somebody would say he sounds like he has AS too, and that's a load of bull crap. I am sick of hearing people on this forum who claim AS because they have one or two of the HUGE variety of traits and characteristics, and then to only a mild and non-invasive extent. I just found out the other day that my mother has known I have AS all along and my diagnosis was confirmed a long time ago, and I'm really glad because I was beating myself up about being one of the 80% of people who think they have it that actually don't. Yep, that's an official study. But I was really cautious about claiming the label, because of that fact, and I'm sick of people who aren't. So now that I've got the confirmation, I can say this.

So to continue talking about my husband...just because he doesn't understand me or is distant doesn't mean he is autistic or even has autistic traits. Autistic people don't know how even if they try...he knows how but doesn't try. He has NO other symptoms in any setting other than with me, and I can say with complete confidence that he is as NT as they come. Some people really are that selfish. Deal with it. And stop trying to encourage people making light of this strange and invasive mix of a precious gift/torturous curse by claiming it or its traits when they don't even know what being different feels like. When I say that studies show that 80% of people who think they have AS don't actually have it, what I mean is that studies show that 80% of people who think they have AS aren't nearly as awesome as we are and haven't experienced NEAR the hell that they think they have.

By the way, I am NOT criticizing anyone who has replied to this topic who doesn't have the official diagnosis, and I'm certainly not implying that everyone who reads this and will respond who doesn't know for sure if they have it or not is exaggerating or misplacing any symptoms. And I'm sure not making light of your past experiences and struggles if you fall into that category.

All I'm saying is that people on this forum are so quick to assume that if your spouse doesn't understand you, he/she MUST have AS or AS traits. I see an overwhelming number of posts by people assuming that undiagnosed family members who have personality quirks or difficulties must also have it. Remember, you can see anything in anybody if you try hard enough--you create your own reality. AND that studies show that there is most likely, as in probably, as in a little less than definitely but NOT, so I could be wrong, a high number of people on these forums that don't have AS. And I'm NOT claiming to know who those people are, or assuming you (being the general "you" of whoever happens upon this topic) are one of them. That's all I'm saying.

Anyway, no my husband does not have AS. But he is SO FREAKING SELFISH when it comes to mine. Last night he started yelling because "all I ever do is complain" and that "if I stop what's making me uncomfortable it will go away, but if I keep giving in to it it will make it worse." He wants me to just "get over it," and that applies to every little thing in my life. I am so sick of him being so closed minded and so unwilling to work with me.

Yesterday after supper I was actually going to post an update here saying we were making progress and in our conversation over supper he seemed really willing to work with me and that our conversation went really well. But then last night he gave me that bit and I am so sick of him I could just tear the house down! He is such a jerk!! !

I probably wouldn't be ranting on here right now except that I just got in from work (after the most god-awful day you could imagine) and while going through my e-mail/Facebook/forum check which meant I was here anyway, he started bitching at me for complaining about my day. (Apparently I was "screaming at him" for something that wasn't his fault. Hell if I know how loud my voice is! Not to mention kicking me while I'm down! Obviously if my day was rough he could be a LITTLE SYMPATHETIC! Just another example of him being totally ignorant and insensitive to the fact that I might BE A LITTLE DIFFERENT!)

Fact # 1: I can't help being selfish and insensitive. I try.
Fact # 2: He won't get this through his skull.
Fact # 3: He can help being selfish and insensitive.
Fact # 4: He doesn't.

I'm REALLY pissed off right now.

Wow, I would be asking for a divorce.

He doesn't seem to love you at all. I'm sorry if that's blunt. NT males express love openly. They are constantly kissing, caressing, cuddling, and touching their lovers, or so I've seen. Further along in the relationship kissing and caressing on a regular basis without the promise of sex is less common, but there is always a lot of non-sexual physical contact. They also call their lovers on the phone just to say "hi," and they speak warmly to their lovers. This has nothing to do with AS; this is what NTs do with NTs. The "neediness" you are describing is normal NT stuff.

Based on my observations of NT men's interactions with their wives, girlfriends and children, there are several reasons I believe an NT male would withhold such affections as hugging, kissing ect in your circumstance.

1) He doesn't want to be with you anymore because of some emotional reason that cannot be resolved, but he's either afraid of change or doesn't want to leave the relationship for some other reason.
2) He picked you because you were easy, and he knew you would worship him unconditionally and he could treat you however he wanted. You also probably trust him unconditionally, too.
3) He does not feel warm romantic feelings towards you, but thought you would make a "good wife," which he felt he needed. See above.
4) He has an emotional problem with the relationship that can be resolved.
5) He does not have romantic feelings for you and he married you for some kind of logistical reason that would increase his social dominance somehow.
6) He was severely abused as a child
7) He could also be some kind of other non-neurotypical besides ASD, like someone with Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
8 ) Or he was raised not to express affection.

As for the problems in your marriage that seem to actually have to do with your AS...

It doesn't sound like he really believes that you have a disorder. If you think that it will help, could take him to see your head doctor/shrink ect and your doctor can explain to him the parameters of your disorder. I am not sure how effective this will be. NTs are stubborn, and usually cannot be reasoned with when it comes to emotional issues. Everyone is different though.

Also, here's something you might not know:

NTs aren't oblivious to other people's emotions AT ALL. AT ALL AT ALL!! !! If you're in pain, he knows, unless he has a childhood history of physical or sexual abuse. My NT friends tell me that when they see a gesture or expression, they instantaneously know what the person expressing it is feeling. Instantaneously, no thought, automatic. You have no emotional secrets from an NT unless you learn how to school your features not to express your true emotions (which NTs are totally capable of doing, btw). They get a corresponding emotion that tells them how another person is feeling, and they react automatically, sometimes without even thinking, react even to the observable emotions of people with AS. They are also capable of thinking about interpersonal situations somewhat logically, and know how to use emotions to achieve their personal goals of social dominance or social harmony. This is socialization.

NTs are very, very, very socially savvy. Compared to us anyway. ASD people often severely underestimate how manipulative and socially skilled that NTs are.

Blunt honesty is how I roll. If you were inadequately describing him or leaving details out, I could be making an incorrect assessment. I have been observing the facial expressions and social behavior of NTs obsessively ever since I realized I was "different" but I may make mistakes because I am, after all, a so-called "social ret*d." I have also have not been alive for very long (about as long as you have). Still, I wanted to share my thoughts because I think (perhaps totally incorrectly) that I have at least some insight into the neurotypical mind after years of obsessive observation.

On a positive note: Not all NT males are selfish pricks! Some are totally open, understanding people who will work with an AS partner and be 100% supportive. Some NT men manipulate girls with AS so that they can have sex with an attractive body, ignore the mind, and then tell the mind that this behavior is socially acceptable. Some NT men are only grudgingly tolerant, some bully their spouses, some are loving. Some are ignorant, some are kind. Such is life. Personally, I have decided after a brief experimentation not to socialize with NTs in a sexual sense. They are too different. Many people with ASD feel the same way.

When you read this please realize that I am obsessed and bias toward divorce!

I am in a similar situation, but have two children with my husband and it would be very complicated to split. I dream of it every day.

You are quite young and since you do not have kids, it would be easy to start over. You should not feel guilty about considering this if you do not think he is the one. It would also be to his benifit if you consider it now rather than later. I am not saying that it is the best choice, just that, if it is in your best interest, think about it.

Most of the problems you describe sound like regular ones to me, not just for aspies. It is common, almost universal, that men and women have different needs in bed. I told my husband (as nicely as I could!)once that I did not like a certian thing he does and he informed me that he knew what women wanted and I was wrong!

Many couples do not see each other much, with me I am grateful I only see him a few hours a week.

You should not be scared of him. IF he is a bully, get out! You mentioned you walk on egshells so he does not think you are nagging. This is normal, but there is a fine line between that and something worse.

Just some random thoughts on the situation. I am not sure if I make much sence at this point. It is 2 in the moring and I am waiting for him to fall asleep before I go to be so I do not have to have sex.

Do what is best for you.
peace.

Actually, this is where things can get a bit more complicated than is often ralised. The OP complained because people often see AS in spouses where it is not, but I think there is a reason for this. I believe that an NT person would exhibit more AS-like behaviour (specifically referring to the emotion/non-verbal side - obviously there is more to being AS than this). Think of the remark that he does not have this problem with other people:
The NT ability to read emotions seems to be related to mirror neurons etc. and basically comes down to interpreting the emotional meaning of another's non-verbal signals by comparing that action to the corresponding emotion in their own mind that would associate with that action. That means that their awareness is only accurate in as far as the other person's mind is working like theirs. So in the case of an AS person the signals being put out could in fact be different than those that an NT person would expect so we are being misread by NTs who are usually more accurate with other people.
In this aspect it is like being surrounded by a world of "AS" people as they cannot read our emotions correctly, but unfortunately these "AS" people are not like this all the time so they have learnt to expect that they are correct in their judgements which makes it so much worse for us. That is my current theory anyway.