disturbing conversation
21 Jun 2014, 9:29 pm
Just had what felt like a rather disturbing conversation with the ex-bf...same old story, I suppose, but I hang up wishing I had a way either to help him or to help him find help. He's having some jobhunting success now, but is completely overwhelmed and exhausted, very isolated, angry at himself, has trouble knowing what he wants, just looked exhausted, unwell, bewildered. Everything is negative. He was blanking on things that make me wonder how much else he's forgotten, or just wasn't really present for in the first place...I get overwhelmingly the sense of a child who was abandoned in a train terminal years ago and has just been trying to manage ever since. But I don't know what to do for him, especially since he wants nothing to do with diagnoses formal or informal. Or at least doesn't appear to.
I feel like someone else would know how to handle this better. I'm also sensing that at this point if I didn't get in touch with him he'd probably go months or forever without getting in touch with me.
auntblabby
Veteran
Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,561
Location: the island of defective toy santas
23 Jun 2014, 12:29 am
Why's it so important. I guess for the same reason that you don't want to walk way from a real child who's been abandoned in a train station. And he is, in many ways, one of my peeps.
There's an element of friendship - more on my side than on his, for sure; he's not a very good friend. But I feel somewhat responsible at this point, just because he really is...well, somewhat disabled, really, and headed for serious trouble, and that's not a joke at our age. His parents have been bailing him out for decades, but his dad's going deaf and in his 70s and isn't going to be able to keep working forever; both his parents are frail. Lives far from family and fights with them when he visits, which is very infrequent. Has siblings who're well-off, but not endlessly patient and maybe unaware of some of his problems. The person who'd been his main support where he is has made it clear that she's too old and tired to take in strays now. And the social supports that had been there for a long time -- the sort of scruffy-but-jolly society that surrounds college and grad-student and young-arts-professional life -- he's gotten rather old for all that, doesn't belong anymore. I've never seen him in a setting in which he can cope consistently. And he's very, very bright and well-read, but there are these tremendous missing areas in his conception of the world, so he really doesn't map well to what other people are doing, how the world is actually arranged.
I'd like to see him in a safe place where he can have some work, the ability to rest when necessary without having things fall apart, and help navigating. Could I turn my back and walk, yes, but it doesn't feel right. I did the right thing in refusing to let him stay here, but I don't know. I get the sense I'm hanging around in case I'm needed, until some more reliable/useful/local support is there for him.
23 Jun 2014, 5:33 am
Therapists, doctors, and job coaches are supposed to focus on our problems. Even they need to be aware of our strengths, however.
I don't get the impression he wants much to do with that group of helpers. If he does, let them do the work, your role as friend is to be supportive. There may be nothing you can do, there may be nothing you want to do.
But the reason the above group focuses on problems is to fix them or accommodate them. That's why people accept the criticism inherent in someone identifying what they do not do well. If you can't or don't want to do any fixing, or he doesn't want to let you, you look for what you can enjoy and do that.
23 Jun 2014, 8:28 am
Since you are physically distant from him (you mentioned you live 1,000 miles away), it's difficult to really play an active role in his rehabilitation from his apparent abyss. You would be uprooted.
I wish I knew the dynamics of the relationship between his family and him--perhaps they are so complex as to be incomprehensible. Do you have a relationship with the family?
You seem to possess a good knowledge of the world and its macrocosmic dynamics, which would be useful in microcosm. You also seem to have a "caregiver" instinct. I believe this would of benefit to the guy, especially at the early stages of his rehabilitation (for rehab it is, really!)
At least he is job-hunting.
I could understand the reasoning behind your concern for him. I always try to be a friend to "exes," should they so desire it.
24 Jun 2014, 7:11 pm
There's an element of friendship - more on my side than on his, for sure; he's not a very good friend. But I feel somewhat responsible at this point, just because he really is...well, somewhat disabled, really, and headed for serious trouble, and that's not a joke at our age. His parents have been bailing him out for decades, but his dad's going deaf and in his 70s and isn't going to be able to keep working forever; both his parents are frail. Lives far from family and fights with them when he visits, which is very infrequent. Has siblings who're well-off, but not endlessly patient and maybe unaware of some of his problems. The person who'd been his main support where he is has made it clear that she's too old and tired to take in strays now. And the social supports that had been there for a long time -- the sort of scruffy-but-jolly society that surrounds college and grad-student and young-arts-professional life -- he's gotten rather old for all that, doesn't belong anymore. I've never seen him in a setting in which he can cope consistently. And he's very, very bright and well-read, but there are these tremendous missing areas in his conception of the world, so he really doesn't map well to what other people are doing, how the world is actually arranged.
I'd like to see him in a safe place where he can have some work, the ability to rest when necessary without having things fall apart, and help navigating. Could I turn my back and walk, yes, but it doesn't feel right. I did the right thing in refusing to let him stay here, but I don't know. I get the sense I'm hanging around in case I'm needed, until some more reliable/useful/local support is there for him.
Well, I hope he finds something so you don't have to worry about him any more. What help can you reasonably expect to provide? Out of all the things you can do to help him, which specific actions are likely to benefit him the most? (These are the types of questions I ask myself when I am trying to help somebody. It helps me stop worrying about things I cannot control and focus on specific things I can do to help.)
24 Jun 2014, 7:46 pm
There's an element of friendship - more on my side than on his, for sure; he's not a very good friend. But I feel somewhat responsible at this point, just because he really is...well, somewhat disabled, really, and headed for serious trouble, and that's not a joke at our age. His parents have been bailing him out for decades, but his dad's going deaf and in his 70s and isn't going to be able to keep working forever; both his parents are frail. Lives far from family and fights with them when he visits, which is very infrequent. Has siblings who're well-off, but not endlessly patient and maybe unaware of some of his problems. The person who'd been his main support where he is has made it clear that she's too old and tired to take in strays now. And the social supports that had been there for a long time -- the sort of scruffy-but-jolly society that surrounds college and grad-student and young-arts-professional life -- he's gotten rather old for all that, doesn't belong anymore. I've never seen him in a setting in which he can cope consistently. And he's very, very bright and well-read, but there are these tremendous missing areas in his conception of the world, so he really doesn't map well to what other people are doing, how the world is actually arranged.
I'd like to see him in a safe place where he can have some work, the ability to rest when necessary without having things fall apart, and help navigating. Could I turn my back and walk, yes, but it doesn't feel right. I did the right thing in refusing to let him stay here, but I don't know. I get the sense I'm hanging around in case I'm needed, until some more reliable/useful/local support is there for him.
Well, I hope he finds something so you don't have to worry about him any more. What help can you reasonably expect to provide? Out of all the things you can do to help him, which specific actions are likely to benefit him the most? (These are the types of questions I ask myself when I am trying to help somebody. It helps me stop worrying about things I cannot control and focus on specific things I can do to help.)
Your words remind me of the "serenity prayer" --truly wise, no matter how often the idea is expressed.
The place to investigate is this: "I feel somewhat responsible at this point... because he... is... disabled and headed for serious trouble" --You really aren't responsible and the planet is loaded with people in desperate states--the UN just reported a global refugee population of 50, 000, 000 people. We can't each be responsible for all of them just because the situation is desperate (but imagine how those 50 million lives could be turned around if the richest 2 billion did a little to help?) --so the question is what is this man to you?
It seems to me you have a stronger tie to him. I hope, however irrationally, that he has some epiphany and begins a period of remarkable inner change and then deals with his issues constructively, and then you can have the healthy relationship with him that you deserve.
24 Jun 2014, 9:21 pm
I wish I knew the dynamics of the relationship between his family and him--perhaps they are so complex as to be incomprehensible. Do you have a relationship with the family?
You seem to possess a good knowledge of the world and its macrocosmic dynamics, which would be useful in microcosm. You also seem to have a "caregiver" instinct. I believe this would of benefit to the guy, especially at the early stages of his rehabilitation (for rehab it is, really!)
At least he is job-hunting.
I could understand the reasoning behind your concern for him. I always try to be a friend to "exes," should they so desire it.
I met the family, but no, don't really have a relationship with them. And yes, the relationships are complicated, but they all do care about him and try to reach out in various ways. They're also very tight as a family. I don't know how receptive any of them are, or would be, to the idea of disability even if he brought it up -- even though, you know, things have gone poorly with him for a really long time now. People don't ditch careers and wander around single and semi-employed and near-homeless for kicks, not at our age. I'm guessing his parents wouldn't react well.
The thing is, he's very smart, and much aware of his own limitations and problems. He's easily overwhelmed by thinking about them, but aware. I'm also a bad person for him to talk with about these things, sometimes, because he lives with a lot of anxiety and I really don't, and it's very easy for me to bring up enough sensitive topics that he has to hang up. He understands what he needs, just doesn't see a way clear to getting it, the logistics of everyday life in the meantime are overwhelming, and he's totally ashamed of himself for not being the guy he expected he'd be, for not making things go. If he could let go of that part of it, I think a lot would be better for him.
24 Jun 2014, 9:42 pm
There's an element of friendship - more on my side than on his, for sure; he's not a very good friend. But I feel somewhat responsible at this point, just because he really is...well, somewhat disabled, really, and headed for serious trouble, and that's not a joke at our age. His parents have been bailing him out for decades, but his dad's going deaf and in his 70s and isn't going to be able to keep working forever; both his parents are frail. Lives far from family and fights with them when he visits, which is very infrequent. Has siblings who're well-off, but not endlessly patient and maybe unaware of some of his problems. The person who'd been his main support where he is has made it clear that she's too old and tired to take in strays now. And the social supports that had been there for a long time -- the sort of scruffy-but-jolly society that surrounds college and grad-student and young-arts-professional life -- he's gotten rather old for all that, doesn't belong anymore. I've never seen him in a setting in which he can cope consistently. And he's very, very bright and well-read, but there are these tremendous missing areas in his conception of the world, so he really doesn't map well to what other people are doing, how the world is actually arranged.
I'd like to see him in a safe place where he can have some work, the ability to rest when necessary without having things fall apart, and help navigating. Could I turn my back and walk, yes, but it doesn't feel right. I did the right thing in refusing to let him stay here, but I don't know. I get the sense I'm hanging around in case I'm needed, until some more reliable/useful/local support is there for him.
Well, I hope he finds something so you don't have to worry about him any more. What help can you reasonably expect to provide? Out of all the things you can do to help him, which specific actions are likely to benefit him the most? (These are the types of questions I ask myself when I am trying to help somebody. It helps me stop worrying about things I cannot control and focus on specific things I can do to help.)
Your words remind me of the "serenity prayer" --truly wise, no matter how often the idea is expressed.
The place to investigate is this: "I feel somewhat responsible at this point... because he... is... disabled and headed for serious trouble" --You really aren't responsible and the planet is loaded with people in desperate states--the UN just reported a global refugee population of 50, 000, 000 people. We can't each be responsible for all of them just because the situation is desperate (but imagine how those 50 million lives could be turned around if the richest 2 billion did a little to help?) --so the question is what is this man to you?
It seems to me you have a stronger tie to him. I hope, however irrationally, that he has some epiphany and begins a period of remarkable inner change and then deals with his issues constructively, and then you can have the healthy relationship with him that you deserve.
Well -- I don't think that will happen, I mean he's got plenty to do looking after himself, and as nice as it might be, he isn't the man for me. I'm an exhausting person even for the robust. But we understand each other a little.
I'm not, of course, literally responsible for him. But the therapeutic model of "you're not responsible"...to give to the point of self-harm, that's a problem. But to look out for someone else when you can...you know, I used to know a guy, and I made a conscious decision not to help. His problems, obviously serious problems, I wasn't going to participate. I had my own world to take care of. So I got an email and when I wrote back and he didn't answer, I let it go. I didn't drop everything, get in the car and drive. If I had, the odds aren't bad that there's a little girl who'd still have a daddy today. And that was a fine human being, one of the best I ever met. After he killed himself, you know, everyone was very kind and told me there wasn't anything I could've done. It wasn't true. It's a thing people say to help you go on.
Is this guy in the same kind of danger, I don't think so. But is he in danger, yes. What can I do from here...keep an ear out. Keep searching around his area for supports so that when he's finally of a mind to accept some, I can say, "Try these people." Be ready to talk to his family about what I've seen, if that's useful. Be ready to talk to police if that's helpful. And just keep listening, thinking, making connections, so that maybe there's a helpful thing to say when the time's right. I guess that's what. I think he needs specific help more urgently than that, but I don't have it for him.
25 Jun 2014, 6:08 am
How terrible that you have been carrying that guilt around. How terrible.
There is NO way you can know that you could have made any difference. I know you are experienced enough with depression to know that.
I think the realization about your options a the end of this post is very good. Let's say he has a tiny change of heart and mind and looks for help. What directions can you point him in?
The thing I worry about in this kind of situation is: will the community he is in give him the time and space he needs to try to come to grips with himself, Orr is there a moment when he will run out of options and the logic of the police will take over.
I hope things go better for him and I hope you don't beat yourself up over not being able to fix him.
25 Jun 2014, 6:53 am
The greatest gift you can give would be to think through how you enjoy and/or respect him, feel it through and through, and show this to him in your conversations.
The greatest gift to someone feeling suicidal is hope. Not hope that if they give up everything or change or anything else..... Just pure and simple hope.
I understand he seems to need help and you feel pulled to give it and that he seems in many ways quite disabled to you.
He isn't a child and short of trying to get him committed or getting adult protective services involved if those are options--they may be appropriate but short of that and unless he qualifies or is in need of those he needs to feel independent, he needs to feel respected and he needs to feel hope. Any of those you feel through and through and can show him would be a great gift to give him.
He has some idea what he can't do even if he outwardly denies it. Let him do so, it makes it easier to feel hope.
Number one reason IMO for suicide is no hope. Let him feel hope about himself when he talks to you if you are able even if it's unjustified. You will be making his life easier.
25 Jun 2014, 9:42 am
But how can you give that to someone?
When I was that depressed, nothing other people did got through to where I was. Only when something changed internally could I begin to perceive gestures from other people at all.
The thing that got to me more than anything else in my darkest days was the sense that someone else respected and valued some of my smallest perceptions. That person gave me a sense that she respected me as a being in the present moment.
Perhaps that tiny gift of compassionate attention saved my life...
25 Jun 2014, 10:53 am
But how can you give that to someone?
When I was that depressed, nothing other people did got through to where I was. Only when something changed internally could I begin to perceive gestures from other people at all.
The thing that got to me more than anything else in my darkest days was the sense that someone else respected and valued some of my smallest perceptions. That person gave me a sense that she respected me as a being in the present moment.
Perhaps that tiny gift of compassionate attention saved my life...
You wrote out how I see it beautifully. Your last sentence answers how you give hope. Respect, presence, full attention. That, and you believe in the person.
25 Jun 2014, 9:48 pm
And encourage you to keep on connecting with your friend.
In some small way, by simple attention, you might do the equivalent of saving the world.
Well, I think this is going a bit far. But thank you. No, I know there's no way of knowing that I could've kept my other friend alive beyond that week. (I do know that had I dropped what I was doing and gone, yes, I'd have got there in time.) I don't think it was his first attempt, either. And he was in a very bad situation, lifewise. But there's also a fair chance that he'd have pulled back from the edge. People do, after attempts.
With my friend now...no, there's nothing to fix. This is who he is. And I don't think it's a matter of pulling himself together, either; I've known him a few years now, and it seems to me he just needs certain kinds of support. And may need them for a long time or forever, who knows. Do I think the world will accommodate on its own, no, I don't. He's lived in...five places in the last year partly because people keep throwing him out. He doesn't really see why, either. All situations are tippy for him.
Waterfalls, I hear what you're saying, but unfortunately when I really shine that light, things get out of control. It's easy for him to get that from someone else and wildly overestimate what he can do or where the boundaries are, and then things go badly and he winds up feeling terrible and shaken. So I'm just...a person. I don't worry at him about himself and if there are things he doesn't want to talk about I don't. The main thing is that I like him.
