Differences between AS and NT brains in a conversation?

Post Reply New Topic

Can you describe what you think the differences are in what AS and NT brains are doing in a conversation?


My perception is

(a) logic of topic;

both AS and NT use some analysis and systemising; e.g. "shall we meet up next week?" - both analyse diaries etc

(b) emotion of topic;

AS just analyses and systemises, NT does a mix of this plus emotional intuition etc; e.g. "shall we 'Cloverfield' next month?"; AS thinks about topic, plus and minuses, etc, NT does this but also feels "Yes, I really want to see it, I'm not sure why!" (may have been influenced by the advertising)

(c) picking up how the other person is feeling;

AS systemises, NT empathises - to me this is the REAL big difference area. AS is watching the face, analysing where has seen a furrowed brow like that before, referring to mental database for what it might mean. NT just FEELS other is not feeling good.

(d) working out why the other person may be feeling whatever they are feeling;

AS analyses, e.g. what is happening in other's life, have we been talking about something upsetting etc. NT also analyses, but will also do some intuitive stuff, trying to FEEL what the other person may be upset by.

(e) ongoing emotional input into the conversation;

AS is uncertain, working hard, and thus has little ability to uncover and bring emotional energy to the conversation. NT feels, and takes risks by leeting these feelings and empathise drive the conversation - e.g. see my Bogo example in the 'Exercises to Turn off Systemising' page.

I think the key issue is that AS people use systemising in interpretation of other people - this (a) does not work well, and (b) creates huge mental load.


This relates to trying to help a lady seeking to exit AS - see the comments conversation on http://unlearningasperger.blogspot.com/ ... g-and.html

thanks

I think you are getting to outward manifestations more than what is happening in the brain.

In communication, your brain is receiving input, processing it, categorizing it and telling you what to respond.

What is happening in a NT brain, if current theories hold, is that they hear your words (20% of the communication) and read your tone, body language, eyes and facial expressions (80%). That 80% non-verbal theory is actually pretty old NT theory on communication, by the way. An AS person is highly dependent to solely dependent on the verbal so depending on how well your mirror neurons work or you are able to actually read non-verbal by finding an alternate method, you'll get anywhere from 20% of what they say upward.

NT brains rely heavily on mirror neurons from the time a human is born. It starts when they are being fed, talked to, cuddled, etc. Their brain is picking up all sorts of information and processing it, classifying it and spitting it back out as it feels it should. Let's take crying. Crying when it starts is not emotional, it's an alarm to let the adult know the infant is hungry, wet, etc. By watching adults and mirroring back their behavior, the infant begins to "cry" for other reasons. Maybe it sees its mother cry when she's sad or the dog dies. Adults tickle chins to make babies smile then try to get them to associate that with when they should smile. They build a pattern in the brain between the two of them (or three or more).

Those things gotten through mirror neurons convey all sorts of information to NTs. Are you friendly, do you mean well, are you lying, are you happy, etc. As their brains build those patterns, they take in information from the non-verbal and spit it back out in nano seconds. That information tells them all kinds of things before one word is ever uttered. In fact, they will have pretty much made up their mind about whatever is uttered after that because the content is not as relevant as the information their brain has already received and processed. That is not "intuitive" or any other mumbo jumbo psychobabble naming, it's mirror neurons pure and simple. It's a brain. It doesn't feel and has no emotion. What you think of as emotion is just the mirror neurons reflecting things back and lots of cultural belief shoved on top of that to "name" it. It's not that they "feel" so much as they are unconsciously fed information to reach a decision. Since they don't "know" it at a concious level, it's described as just a feeling. "Why did you do that?" "I don't know. I just had a feeling." The feeling was really the brain saying, that face looked scary based on other faces you've seen like that. Bad things happen when people look like that. Get out of there. It's all happening in the brain so rapidly that they just feel the feeling - "Get out of there." They don't know why and they couldn't tell you if you asked them.

It also sends the messages of how to get along with other people, how to be accepted, how to do what they want, etc. All from the same mirror neurons taking in the non-verbal, processing it, categoring it and analyzing it when it happens again. It's just a big superprocessor doing the work behind the scenes.

That isn't at all the way an AS person communicates. It's not even really similar. You could take me (although you have to vary this by how well the mirror neurons work because different AS persons have different levels of this). I can't read body language despite numerous classes. It has to be what the NT feels is very exaggerated and I have to really be paying attention to "see" it. Then I have to consciously analyze it based on what I've read, had in class and very little on what I've seen that exaggerated in the past. I only get the most extreme voice tone changes so it's the same thing. Forget eyes all together because I can stare at those and notice nothing. Obviously that is completely broken. If a face has exaggerated expressions, I'll pick up on them if I concentrate, but it's a lengthy conscious process to interpret them. Basically, I am probably doing none of this with mirror neurons so it takes me forever at a conscious level to do it at all and its a lot of work. I could miss the whole conversation trying to interpret one facial expression or body stance. That isn't even remotely similar to NT communication. It's much more work and much less accurate in the end. The NT did it all based on much more information I couldn't "see" in nano seconds with no conscious awareness of it.

So I probably miss somewhere in the neighborhood of 75-79% of the communication with NTs every time I communicate with them. If no words are spoken, which happens frequently with NTs, I lost 99-100% of the communication and no telling what they picked up. If you don't have working mirror neurons or they are damaged, what you reflect back is always going to be off and there is no telling how the NT brain will interpret that from its stored bank of non-verbal communication. That's when you get, "Why do you look so sad all the time?" Their brain is telling them you look sad. They didn't make that decision by conciously analyzing you. So if you ask, "Why did you say that?" you will get back "I don't know." The fact is that they don't consciously know. They just "feel" it. That's not intuition or emotion, it's mirror neurons. You can even make them uneasy and it's still mirror neurons. You are always projecting body language and other non-verbal cues whether you realize it or not. Their brains are processing all kinds of assumptions based on that. If you don't understand that, you are missing almost all of how NTs communicate.

AS people have some to none of this. We live in a world of words and actions. You are what you say. You are what you do. We don't have mirror neurons or they are damaged, so our brains don't "get" that and we can't do anything with what we don't get. It's like telling someone to fill up a bucket with sand when they are standing in the middle of a mile of concrete. You can't expect sand then. It's not a case of the person doesn't want to do it or doesn't try hard enough, it's not there or it's there only very little (and that could be messed up if the mirror neurons are damaged enough).

So we are dubbed "literal" because we live in a world of words and actions. We listen carefully to what is said to interpret the world, but in a NT world, what is said is very little of what is actually communicated. That's why NTs get frustrated. "That's not what I mean!" It actually isn't what they mean. Then we scream back, "But that's what you said!" To us there is only what is said. Now you have two cars passing and even very little wind is exchanged. It's only in an education environment where this sometimes goes away because in a "lecture" environment, words are everything and the rest is pretty much useless. It's also why when AS people talk about "facts" or intellectual subjects, the difference diminishes greatly. Those conversations are much more reliant on words than non-verbal so they suit AS brains. You're no longer dealing with those missing pieces or you are but to a much smaller extent.

I would not get caught up in emotional terminology when describing brain activity because it will confuse you. Stick to what is really happening in the brain, even to figure out things we "call" emotion. To understand an AS brain in communication or even a NT brain, you need to let go of that and look at the neurons. It makes more sense that way. It will also free you from reading intentions into people when they aren't there.

That's the best I understand it based on what Neurologists currently know. Hope it helped.

many thanks this is very helpful. you have expressed much of what I say on my site but much better!

The crux for me is your comment on AS mirror neuron use " Obviously that is completely broken."
My thesis is that some, at least, AS tendency people do have working mirror neurons, but that these are drowned out by the 'wrong' systemising going on - and that if that is stopped, the mirror neurons will be heard; I believe this is what has happened in my case.

However a couple of people have described their experience of trying this, and it sounds like their mirror neuron functionality just was not there.

So maybe there are 2 variants of AS people;
Category A who do AS because they seem to have no choice; they seem to have no mirror neuron capability, and
Category B who do AS because they developed that way, but who can rediscover NT functionality.

Maybe Category B aren't really AS...

Or maybe Category A is just a harder version of Category B, and could also recover mirror neuron NT functioning if only better techniques and positive approaches could be discovered...

Many thanks for your input.

I haven't any idea how much communication I "miss" and provided it doesn't get me into trouble, I really don't care. Otherwise, I certainly would like to improve the take up rate to prevent as many misunderstandings as possible. When there are misunderstandings, we have to realise it isn't our "fault" as it takes two (or more) to make a conversation. It's not just us who have communication blocks.

Recovering mirror neuron functionality is what plasticity theory is based upon. There is no scientific evidence this is possible, only postulated theory and if you are talking about educational or rehabilitative type therapies those are not currently based on any brain science at all but only anecdoctal evidence. That will only ever be verified when they actually know what they are looking at with fMRIs and the like. Until then, it's conjecture, possibly based on preponderance of evidence, but still conjecture.

One thing I think you are missing is that neurons and their communication paths are like any communication involving electrical impulses and communication centers. What I mean is that if your receiving center is damaged or disabled, unless you have the parts (wiring, receivers, etc.) to put it back together or you have an alternate communication center that is acceptable, it's not going to spontaneously repair itself. Autism is a spectrum, don't forget that. Even AS is a spectrum. There are many more categories than two. It's more like a sliding scale. If you have a person with AS who has a high ability to read the non-verbal then the chances are that they have many more non-damaged mirror neurons at work. If they seem to "recover" (in the sense of recovering from any brain difference caused by any reason), then it's likely they have non-damaged mirror neurons that can take over or there are enough with enough functionality to take over. If you look at other brain differences, caused by say an injury, then you'd have a case where a Neurologist would tell you that A) you can recover that functionality because another part of the brain can take over that or enough functionality is left in the area injured to recover or B) that what you've lost cannot be picked up by another part of the brain and it is simply lost. Brains are pretty black and white. The difference with mirror neurons is that Neurology hasn't gotten far enough yet in research to know which of those is true and the only thing for certain is that they are the people to find it and not speculators.


For myself, I can only tell you that I've had extensive training in it and I can't give back what I don't "see" which means my brain doesn't receive any of that input so what I see is no difference. If I do eye tests, they literally all look the same to me. I didn't even know for years that other people saw something different (which is really that their brains receives something different) because I thought my training was successful. What was really happening was that NTs were compensating for me because they thought I was trying. When the truth came out, they still knew I didn't understand and I was way off the mark. They were lying to not hurt my feelings.


When it comes to brains and communication, the mirror neurons are one piece. You've also got things going on sometimes with repeating back words, saying the wrong word, gaps of time between what is said and the AS person understanding it. Those are all problems either in the neurons or pathways between. It's like a phone call that starts out right but either a tower is down or in the case of land lines there's a problem in the wiring. Here's a good concrete example. Recently my land line was experiencing all kinds of static. What my husband said was still perfectly clear on his end. I would hear words, static, words, static. I couldn't make sense of his converation. It was condensation in the line. The line had to be replaced. In your brain, if that pathway is compromised, unless the brain creates an alternate route to compensate, the message is lost. Sometimes the brain can do that and sometimes it can't. That's what the rehabilitation theories are based upon. They are doing what they've done with brain injurires for years which is trying to get the brain to create a different path or use a different part. As I said, sometimes that is possible and sometimes it's not. It depends on the part of the brain and how it works.


Many AS people think they speak NT (just using the expression here). I thought I did fairly well at it. What is really happening though is that they are using other ways to try to understand and communicate to compensate for the parts of their brain that aren't working or are damaged. So they are like a deaf person using sign language or reading lips. Sometimes people have hearing problems and they have to use hearing, reading lips and sign language to get by. It's never exactly like a hearing person, but it's a way to compensate so they communicate in some fashion.


I wouldn't even think of it so much as recovering NT functionality as much as can you get other mirror neurons to take over. That's what you really need to communicate on that level like a NT. Then you're going to have to fix all the other problems as well. So you have to see if the brain has a way to reroute those as well. Go back to the brain and start there. Don't start from an outward symptom and try to figure it out. That's going to be limited by your interpretation of what's happening which may or may not even be correct. Well intentioned NTs did that for years and were way off the mark because their theories were based from their own perspectives, but since what was happening was unconcious to them there was really no way for them to correctly interpret what was happening. That led to crazy theories about Autism in the past that were way off the mark. It's easy to do that when you are trying to go from symptom in and reach the correct conclusion. Do you see what I mean?


Also, beware of people wanting to be NT so badly they pretend to get it when they are really using whatever they have to "pass." Or thinking they have it just because they can't tell if they don't. That's going to give you a false result. Only brain function can ever tell you for certain.

NT is also a spectrum. Huge variances in intelligence, communication, emotions and abilities. Every human is unique, like snowflakes. We all have skills we use to compensate for what we don’t “pick up”.

For an NT, tone of voice means more than body language. Hey, how much time do we spend on the phone? I drove an hour tonight with a friend who talked and talked. I never looked in her direction to see anything, I got it all with patterns while she spoke. Slower, faster, higher, lower, clearer, mushed, so much emotion I picked up without a glance.

I think NTs are not “psychic” and just pick up on things. I think a lot is “identification”, and when we see you making a face we make when we are sad, we will think you are also sad. However, if it the same face another NT makes when they are concentrating, they will think you are concentrating. So, your face means whatever it means to an NT when they make that face. We do it to each other as well. However, if I am making a tummy ache face and someone tells me I look tired, I just say “no, tummy hurts”. Someone else may come up to me and say I look stressed. Nope, tummy. And so on.

We rely a lot on feedback. One thing I have noticed here is AS think too much. Waaay too much. I believe when it is something positive it is ok to over think it, but when it is minor (to an NT) that someone was rude, OMG all hell breaks loose. People are rude to me everyday. I can’t remember a single incident because I let it roll off me. For some reason it seems (to me, this is my observation and perhaps misinterpretation) that AS will hang onto that negativity and analyze it and examine it and wonder what role they played in it. Frankly, if a cashier is terse, I think they need more sleep/a raise/better work conditions/ better man or woman/got in a fight with their child that morning… whatever. It wasn’t about me.

We all have differences as NTs as well. Believe me, the lower functioning NTs just make me want to, I don’t know, GRRRR (and I think they are all Presidential candidates). How many times a day dose someone cut in line, drive like a jerk, say something stupid/offensive, so many things.

I don’t know why I react to people the way I do other than learned behavior. It is not instinct, it is learned. And we have all learned differently, which means we all react differently, which must be confusing to the complex AS brain. It is hard to be smart and logical in a world of inconsistencies. I have no solutions, no answers, just views of how I view things.

Thanks these are very helpful posts.
I agree Fivecents that AS people think too much, and that NT people don't think and analyse as much as AS people fear they do - it's great to hear you say it - AS people don't believe it!
And I agree ZanneMarie that the AS issues are about other brain functioning in addition to mirror neurons (on my site I focus also on opening the bottleneck between visual region and mental-strategy network, and developing the long connections, which builds up synchronisation, enabling integration of the particulars). Another strong point you make is that both NT and AS people are on spectrums. Similarly people like me may be AS people who are still AS but fooling ourselves we are now NT, or we may be NT people who were'nt AS at all but just seemed like it.

However I still see no reason why AS affected brains cannot re-discover NT functioning; either awakening un-used parts (because AS systemising drowned them out so they fell out of use), or, if damaged, finding alternative parts of the brain to give the function.


WRONG ASSUMPTIONS USED IN STOPPING ASPERGER SYSTEMISING

I have now talked with 2 (!) people who have tried to stop Asperger systemising, experienced only 'nothingness' (often with fear and with social problems caused). However I am wondering if these attempts were carried out with wrong assumptions:


1. It was assumed that ALL systemising should be shut down.
I think much systemising carries on (e.g. looking at a diary to see if free on a certain day). The systemising to stop is only that used to interpret people.


2. It was assumed that results would come fast.
My experience was of many months of ups and downs (see the bad poetry on http://unlearningasperger.blogspot.com/ ... arted.html).
I think it will not feel instant. Models;
> turn torch off in the dark - initial panic! - it seems completely black - but after a while eyes adjust, begin to see some things
> are on a tourist boat, wearing stiff Western clothes (say in 1800) - take clothes off, jump over side into water - go down, down into the water - panic! - seems forever - but eventually come back up to surface - in new freedom, can swim...
> baby crawls around on all 4's - stands up - panic! - looks around for something to hold on to - but after a while takes a step - falls down - another step - eventually gets around much better walking than crawling.

These mirror neurons have not been used, perhaps for many decades! - it's a bit unfair to expect your brain to find pathways to them and fire them up instantaneously, and to then expect them to immediately start working perfectly!


3. It was assumed that NT functioning would feel as secure as AS functioning.
In my experience NT functioning does not feel like AS systemising; you do not have the same logic and certainty; it feels inherently less certain, more fluid, and happening in real time and thus always moving. Like surfing or bicycling, compared to the certainty of walking.

It's a bit like when AS I was crawling on the ground of the vineyard, collecting every last grape, whereas now in NT I stride through it, missing lots of grapes but picking lots of complete clusters of grapes from the branches as I walk.



So could you try again? - to shut down your wrong systemising, and give your brain time for the mirror neurons to be heard?:
- shutting down only your systemising where you use it in interpreting people
- expecting this new learning to take some time, with ups and downs along the way
- expecting it to feel less certain, more flighty.

Very best, JC

I hope you didn't include me in your three since I never once gave you any of that information or the indication of it. In any event, all of your assumptions about me would be wrong.

Furthermore if you are writing a thesis, what scientific evidence are you looking at? Are you going solely on anecdotal interviews? See my first response. They are worthless except to propose a theory that you then look at the brain to prove. This doesn't sound like Neurology to me, it sounds like conjecture which is fine for a theory but no one should ever propose it as a system that actually works. We have enough crackpot shrinks and educators out there now doing that then ten years later admitting they knew absolutely nothing. No surprise there except to them. They really should quit wasting everyone's time IMO.

As to Fivecents, no one is suggesting it's psychic but you are suggesting it happens without mirror neurons which is kind of laughable, but whatever. It's your brain. I just hope you aren't inflicting that hogwash on a child. All of the things you describe are what happens because you have mirror neurons. I suggest you read up on it because the research in Neurology is there. Tone of voice is included in things your neurons pick up, process, categorize and use to patter future input. Brains all work the same way and without your brain, you don't decide anything about anyone. Now if you were talking about something completely different, my apologies. If not, that's how it works for all of us in one fashion or another. And yes, all NTs have more or less so-called NT functionality as well. But you throwing out your statement that AS people WAY over think everything when that's the one major way they have to operate is insulting and prejudicial. It's exactly the same as saying a crippled person uses a wheelchair too much. You need to think about that before you write something like that again.


Whether someone does not use their mirror neurons for 20 years is irrelevant if they are damaged. That theory only works if they are perfectly functional but never used. In that case your theory would be correct, JC, but you can't tell that without scans you can actually read. If they are damaged or broken, then trying to use them again 20 years later is going to lead to the same results. You'd have to actually have new mirror neurons, some that still work or find out if the brain can transform other neurons into that functionality. That's where the answer lies. If you can't do that then all rehabilitative efforts if they are broken are futile. They only possibly give limited results if they are damaged.

Not looking to write a thesis; am an engineer by background ; something has worked for me, just wondering if same or similar could work for others.

Whoh, ok, I ma not saying thinking too much is a bad thing, I am just saying AS need to analyze stimuli to interpret it. Pretend you are on vacation in Mexico and speak Spanish relatively well, but still need to process everything and interpret it. That’s all. I just see AS reacting maybe five or ten seconds, maybe sometimes two days, to something that went on verbally or in action. I totally agree that NT brains figure it out in similar or less time (believe, we harp on things), but we don’t let it eat us alive and consume us. I can assure you the rude cashier was just as rude to me, but NTs erase it immediately because we move on to our next task. What REALLY bothers me is how so many AS have been bullied, picked on, taken advantage of because of nativity, and just plain are rolled over by NTs. Now, 99.9% of NTs don’t know about AS, but still, why be rude if someone is not like oneself? This is why…NTs are conformists, afraid of the person in the wheelchair because “omg, could be me thank my lucky stars” never thinking of perhaps how wonderful that person in the wheelchair may be. We can only relate to projecting our own lives into someone else’s (how would I work/take care of kids/go shopping/have intimate relations). Our immediate reaction is indeed what seems selfish but is also grateful. We are scared of being different because we know different is difficult and goodness forbid we have to put out effort more than we already do to have to function in an over demanding world with over demanding stimuli. Crap, we have to text while driving while gpsing while talking while minding every other idiot on the road doing the same thing. It is truly thoughtless.

But…not thought about. We manage and split second decide things. The AS brain dissects while the NTs smush. Neither is better or worse, it’s just different. I really believe, and I have said this randomly on threads, that if NTs knew about AS other than when it touched them personally with a loved one, that we would just know it’s there and just be more aware and helpful as a species. It would raise a level of awareness and conscious that is just not there right now.

An example, I was at work stalking a coffee pot in the cafeteria that was brewing my favorite and only flavor. Someone came up and sidled the pot being taken off the brewer and up for grabs, unaware I was waiting, my cup was sitting there and bumped me aside. Petty as this may seem, NTs will growl. I let it go because perhaps the person was really not aware of my pacing and stalking. Or did not know “ladies first” (bonus he cut in front of me in line). As an NT, I could have brought it to his attention that I was “first”, he did not follow order, etc. But, I am not normal NT (nor am I ever a passive pushover), just let it be. So, was this young man just young and not aware of social “order”, was he enveloped in thoughts, did he know and was being chauvinistic, or, perhaps, was he AS?
Now, if NTs knew squat about AS they would forgive a lot of oddities brushing it off as AS and never thinking twice. “Oh, he cut, butt and overtook the coffee, perhaps AS, keep an eye on him and make sure he is well taken care of (after all, AS will most likely be the dominate of the future). Whatever. In an NT world this happens in a flash and is long forgotten. BUT…if you an NT is aware that there is this whole other wiring out there, they might not get a pissed at the ahole who goes in the express checkout with the proper amount of items and than waits for the clerk to finish bagging only to THEN pull out the checkbook and slowly write a check that needs approval for $7.95, defeating the point of express (but, I only had 5 items).

Summation (and you thought JCJ777 was writing a dissertation), brains are different, and everyone is on some spectrum. What is important is knowing who you are, what you believe in and what you are capable of in spite of setbacks.

ZanneMarie, you are right. Brains are different. Processing is different. Not better or worse, just different. AS has a harder time because they are challenged with a world of instant gratification, but who is to say that is not really the correct way a brain was meant to be? How do you not know for sure that NT was the “malfunction” (minority) and that they were so stupid breeding that there is more and they took over the world?

I am here to figure out how to make a relationship with an AS work, and believe me, I am blessed to be here. He processes things differently, and I can SEE that. He gets so mad that I am not as decisive and complicated as he is. Last night I made a comment about going away for my job that he took as a personal attack because he has to work and can’t join me. Now, if he was NT I would have thought it was some psychological issue, but because he is AS I let it go, stopped arguing, let him digest while I was silent (very difficult for NTs) and when he was over it we moved on.

I am not suggesting we are psychic, and yes, NTs use an intuitive part of the brain for decision making that is illogical, BUT, it is just different, not right or wrong.

Smoke and mirrors topic

I really got involved in the excellent analyses in this forum, by both NT and AS posters. I have learned quite a bit about Mirror Neurons 101, and I will be able to do my own research based on the excellent foundation provided here.

That being said, I still do not know why AS systematizing is considered a handicap instead of just being different. From what I have read here about mirror neurons I would rather analyze. I am just very happy that I can communicate and understand the printed word. This is enough for me, and I would rather reflect in my own way rather than rely on looking through a glass darkly, though if others learn to use the NT way then I wish them well.