What do you think of this description of AS + NT marriages?

Post Reply New Topic

Tonight my wife gave me this document - she feels that it echoes her feelings about our relationship quite well:

http://www.faaas.org/pdf/Grigg_Is_There_Hope.pdf

As for me, I find it hard to recognise myself in there, although I guess I need to give it a little more time.

A number of things occur to me immediately:

1. The suggestion that Aspies are frequently in denial about fitting this overview of their impairments in relationships seems to pre-empt any ideas of mine that are skeptical about its assertions.

2. I don't see much evidence that my marriage is particularly about my needs and interests, in fact one of my chief concerns about the relationship is that my wife tends to try to satisfy a set of stereotyped assumed needs in me, rather than looking at me as I am and addressing my actual needs.

3. I'm not sure this assumption of the Aspie being uncompromising holds much water. Sure, there are some things I wouldn't budge an inch on, but equally I'm quite happy to meet my wife halfway in a lot of things, and have often noticed that she can make impossibly far-reaching demands and angrily withdraws them completely rather than consider my offers of compromise. The offered solution of the Aspie accepting the need to live in mutuality seems to assume a lot - frankly it angers me that somebody can just assume that an Aspie necessarily won't appreciate the need for sharing. It reminds me of a number of so-called Aspie traits about having no interest in teamwork/socialising/making others happy/sharing experiences, which I was carping on about earlier today - I feel the interest in me, but the impatience and competitiveness of others tends to thwart it.

4. AS is a spectrum disorder, with somewhat fuzzy-edged traits, and to my mind a couple should be looking for those traits that aren't completely set in stone - the document makes no mention of this, and seems to have an air of hopelessness about it, in spite of its title.

Anyway, I was wondering what you folks think of the document. Like I say, I need to read it again, but at first glance there seems to be something very wrong either with the document or with me.

I thnk that knowing about Asp. does not make it eeasier. Only harder. Then it feels more hopeless.

Marriage is hard, and with AUT it is indeed almost impossible unless you find a saint.

I have not gotten into many deeep relationships, but the ones I did failed. Very painful.

Now I do what I should have done and stay by myself. No one told me I had AUT till older. If I had known I would not have tried.

This is not to say it never ever works. I hope it does for you because I k now it's so hard! Therapy may help. My partner was against it and wanted to blame.

I wish you the best in your marriage!

I agree with this article. I was married to a man whom we didn't find out has AS until after the relationship was over.

I remember my ex saying that in a marriage, we shouldn't have to compromise who we are just to make the partner happy. I could never win with him. He had an answer for everything.

I would suggest reading the book "Alone Together". In that book, the husband with AS essentially says that it is better to have a wife who will take care of you and your needs, but at the same time have her know that when he doesn't need her, to leave him alone.

In the article, the topic "Normal expectations of marriage" hit very close to home.

Even after all this time, I still miss my husband and wish we had known before or early on in the relationship of his AS. I still love him, but sadly, it's too late.

All of your points are logically quite sound, however, I'm not sure it would be a good idea to just charge in and debunk the article. I'm not an expert in relationships by any stretch of the imagination, but I have read a number of relationship books, and they all talk about "validating feelings".

I think the first thing you should do, before defending yourself or criticizing the article's flaws is to acknowledge your wife's feelings on the matter. If you don't, she may feel like you aren't listening to her, even if you are.

Keep in mind that you don't have to agree with your wife's opinions in order to validate her feelings.

I always said "I need a wife" and now I know exactly what I mean! (and yes, I am female and an Aspie, and yes I am heterosexual, bear with me here, I am making a point) I mean exactly that, someone to wash my socks and the dishes and bear the children and keep them away from me. Oh, and to have my dinner on the table and relieve me sexually then make themselves scarce.

wow, sounds like such a deal!


Merle

I too wish I could find a wife like that. Sex slave that cooks well and lets me borrow her uterus whenever I have a desire for kids. Awesome!

Truthfully, that type of stereotype wife would be boring and sounds like they got no spine! If you don't want sex, say so. He should cook what he's able to (same goes for cloth/dish washing). It's a mutual respect thing, not a fancy enslavery process.

As for the article, I didn't read it, but really...all those romance tips people have and whatnot. They hit a wide range of people and hope it's helpful to somebody. Nearly never is it 100% helpful or true or relational. It is similar to going to church. The preacher isn't talking directly to you when he tells his story, but he's hoping that if he talks about adultry and sex before marriage that he will cover a vast # of people (see: statistics) and they will be able to relate/feel bad.

No, that kind of wife wouldn't be boring at all. She'd be quite a lot of fun. The problem would be that she probably wouldn't be happy.

I totally relate with what you are saying sinsboldly! I am totally heterosexual, as well - but I understand what you are getting at. I feel like I need help sometimes. The help is more like the sort of help one would get from having a parent around, however. My mother passed away a few years ago and I was left with my kids and my husband..... it was at this time that I realized how much emotional support I was getting from my mother. I was also getting the "babysitter" element from her. I hardly ever get a chance to engage in my special interests because I am always tending to children or having to talk with my husband or go out and do something that he finds interesting or fun..... I realize that this is a compromise that I am just going to have to make! It isn't that I don't enjoy my family so mush as it is that I need that emotional release of being able to be alone in silence..... at least for a little time every day. For now, I have to settle for some alone time on a treadmill at the local fitness center. It isn't much, but it is what I have. I feel guilty because I long for the day when my youngest child will be old enough to tend to herself more. I have a teenager and she is EASY to care for. I make her some food and see to it that she is doing well in school..... things like that. Most of the day she is capable of caring for her own needs, however! My little one needs me for everything. I love her, but it is really difficult to give her the time she needs. I have to keep myself in a state of "guilt" to keep me going. Does that make sense? I have set myself up to feel extreme guilt if I don't meet her needs and as a result I almost always am able to meet them! It works well for her, but it leaves me feeling like I have no "self" and that makes me feel depressed..... I just keep telling myself that she will not be small for long. My oldest grew very fast and so will this one..... I love my children, but I realize that I am not really "cut out" to be mom. As for my husband.... I think he may also have AS (or at least a boat load of traits....). I think we both struggle together and I don't know if that makes us have a harder time or an easier time. We seem to spend a lot of time resenting each other for managing to get some "me time".

That kind of partner would disgust me, as all partners eventually would. Thus I have decided to cook my own food, clean my own house, do everythiung for myself or sink. Notneeding anyone suts me fine becaause truly I would hate to put someone in that situation.

My ex BF is ASP and I am AUT. Incredibly stupid that we ever started. We are still best friends, but never anything more. He is very needy. I could be curled up in a ball in PMS pain and he would say that he was neglected. But then again, he could be crying because he felt that we were growing apart and I would be closed into my own prison and unable to feel his needs at all.

We would have become one another's worst enemies....and so we backed off and stopped trying for a realtionship and honed in on friednship.

Now we are the best of friends. We read together and walk and talk every day. I lve him more now and he loves me more now. And, what is most important, is that when we are ABLE we communicate. We are now never forced to do so. So, now, we can care for each other in a real way, and I do mean care, despite what S.B. Cohen says. He cares for me and meets many of my material and emotional needs and I meet as many of his emotional needs as I am able. And we have been this way for about a decade. Which is really amazing for my level of being able to bond with people.

Oh yeah... I get the feeling that if we had no children we would get along much better because we would have a much easier time accomodating each others "interests". We actually have similar interests..... we just have differnt oppinions about those interests..... SPICY!! ! We have some knock-down drag-out debates over some really weird topics!! I don't know if it is a positive or a negative sometimes..... it is interesting none the less.....

Good article.

Thanks for your imput, folks

Sorenna - In darker moments I feel that I wouldn't want to try again either, if my current relationship were to collapse. It's my third marriage and it's my 5th or 6th serious relationship, so my record is very much one of failure, and I've had loads of pain and disappointment along the way. Somehow in my case I still feel hope - indeed I count myself as happily married in many ways. My wife is OK about doing counselling/therapy together, and it's clear that we're very close, even though we seem to drive each other round the bend in some ways. I'm sorry you feel no hope of ever working things out in a relationship, though if you're content to go it alone, there's nothing wrong with that in my view.

Esther - your comment "he had an answer for everything" rings a loud bell in me. My wife so often comes at me with some demand or other, or some opinion or criticism, and I quickly become defensive and I do indeed seem to have an answer for everything. I guess my saving grace is that I'm no more happy with such an outcome than she is....but I find it so hard to know the difference between when she's being unreasonable and when she's really got a point. I don't recall any previous partner ever trying to make so many demands of me, and it's so easy to develop a knee-jerk reaction to what seems like a barrage of requests, yet the last thing I want to do is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I agree about the normal expectations of marriage - togetherness, mutual terms, the meeting of emotional needs, and that it should be the priority - the article says that Aspies do seem to share this expectation but that it ends up being one of practicality and convenience for the Aspie.....I don't experience my marriage in that way - it feels more like we are to some extent both failing to live up to those expectations....I haven't noticed any great practicality or convenience operating in my favour - my wife tends to be the one to ask for practical things, which I supply to some extent; I rarely ask her for anything, and I think she tends to supply me with things that I may or may not need, as if she's having to guess what I might want because I seem so independent and self-contained. I often despair of being the kind of partner she seems to want so much, I know from experience that I'm capable of being demonstrative and warm, but I feel very misunderstood and misjudged these days and somehow have allowed myself to drift back into the safe, matter-of-fact, practical persona, very well-defended emotionally.

Ancalagon - I was indeed sorely tempted to do a systematic hatchet job on the entire article, but something inside was telling me that to do so would be to leave the path of wisdom. I'm sure you're right that validating a partner's feelings in a relationship is very important. You may have noticed that I said I needed to read it again and to give it a little more time....al part of that feeling. Thanks for putting it into words for me - you put it very well. While discussing it with her last night, I remember saying that if she insisted that the article described her experiences of our relationship so well, then sure, that's how it must be, but.......and after the "but" I came out with a number of ideas that detailed my opinions of the article - I only said them to establish my own view, having acknowledged hers as having a right to exist, but she was clearly unhappy about what I said, and I think that the sheer weight of my arguments must have come over as rather too demoralising, and served to invalidate her standpoint and make her feel like I hadn't really heard her.


sinsboldly, Rynok, whipstitches, and all who have posted on the merits (or otherwise) of the "stereotype wife" - in my case, I've always felt rather embarrassed when I've been subjected to that kind of treatment, I've always wanted something a lot deeper and less like a master-servant relationship. Time was when I would have been disgusted by stereotypical wifely behaviour, but I guess I've mellowed. I feel kind of guilty that I don't really appreciate it....so many women, my mother included, have performed the practical "maternal" role to excess (often robbing me of the valuable experience of fending for myself) when it was friendship and emotional support I was looking for. Even the stereotypical Aspie thing about keeping out of the way when I "need space" - mostly I'm OK about that being compromised. As long as there's some predictability in it. My wife finds it very hard to stick to agreed plans, and that's a big strain on me.


I often wonder who's the more impaired, an Aspie man or a neurotypical woman who doesn't know what she wants emotionally. I never met a woman yet who could just come out straight with her emotional needs.

Again, thanks for your replies - keep 'em coming.

I've always suspected I'd probably make someone's life completely miserable if I ever fooled them into a relationship with me... geez, Louise.

So if an Aspergian man starts a relationship with a Non-Aspergian woman, would it ever be wise to tell the girlfriend that he has Asperger's or not?

I suspect it would make little or no difference in the majority of cases.

For one thing, the woman is presumably choosing the man on her observations of his behaviour, so whatever his label says, she either likes the guy for the way he is, or she doesn't.

Then there's the fact that most people don't seem to know anything about AS, so I'd imagine it would be a pretty meaningless declaration.

I guess it might make a difference in borderline cases, if the guy declared it at a very early stage, and if the woman had heard that the condition might cause the guy to seem unromantic and socially inept. But she'd have to be already pretty uncertain about whether she wanted to proceed. And I guess if she were the type to allow labels to seriously prejudice her view, then the label might carry more weight than it should, and she might opt out, though what self-respecting man would want a woman who was stuffed full of prejudice anyway?

I don't see any great advantage in revealing AS.....it's not likely to make her think any better of a guy, though there's always the argument that people should reveal as much about themselves as possible - definitely nobody should actively try to conceal it, especially by straining themselves to behave neurotypically, which would be asking for problems further down the line, and trapping somebody by false pretences like that is a hateful thing to do.

My wife knows I have it, in as far as anybody knows I do (I'm not officially diagnosed) - we pretty much found out together. So far I've seen little evidence that it's done any good (though I'd hope that in the end she'll be able to recognise my needs better). And I suspect that her "knowing" I have AS has daunted her to some extent, it's possibly wiped out some of the hope she had that she could appeal to me through neurotypical channels.

I think maybe if it were the other way round (if a partner had AS), then I'd feel more hope, not less, and perhaps blame her less for brain-wiring, but then I always did have a soft spot for unusual people. But I don't really know. It's hard for me to imagine what it would be like to be NT, and what I'd make of an Aspie if I were NT.

Wow, Serenna, that:

"I could be curled up in a ball in PMS pain and he would say that he was neglected"

sounds like my husband ! He gets so needy sometimes, I feel like I got drafted into the role of being his mother ! Men just don't understand women sometimes, and that just complicates the spectrum-neurotypical equation. I have been married twice, my second (and current) husband has TBI, but not autism or Asperger's. But I think he needed a mother before he got the TBI.

I thought the article was pretty fair insofar as a discussion of some of the problems in such a combined relationship, especially if thinking of taking it into a more serious relationship or marriage. However, I did find the implied assumption that short of your "neurotypical" spouse "discovering" your autism/Asperger's and giving you "therapy" for it, the marriage would have been doomed by your autism or Asperger's. That's pretty disparaging and quite a stereotype. I am not sure I would go so far as to agree the fact one of the partners has autism or Asperger's while the other is neurotypical necessarily dooms a marriage. But, that said, the importance of the article was in its effort to education neurotypical society that people with autism and Aspergers do get married and sometimes with a neurotypical, as well as I think helps society understand that a neurotypical who marries a person with autism or Asperger's may be wanting to do so for all the right reasons (love-romance-sexual relationship-best friends-partners) and it should not been seen as a step-down or disparagement of the neurotypical amonf other neurotypicals.

My issue growing up was my parents did far to little to educate me about love and romance and having such relationships, much less a marriage. And, I was autism before the mainstream schools took any interest in providing any autism education, much less in the area of relationships and marriage. So it took me my first marriage to learn about these things the hard way, and I do have a now adult daughter from that marriage. I am still friends with my first husband, and I always loved my in-laws, but it did not work out both because of his substance abuse problems and because I was not really ready/mature enough with the autism to take on such a relationship at the time.

I think the other problem the article did not address is that without adequate adult autism supports in the U.S., many adults with autism do not necessarily have the freedom and opportunity to enter into all marriages for the right reasons, but instead simply for a partnership quid-pro-quo type relationship that happens to have the other side benefits. And that is basically my second marriage, but the problem even if you love the person in such a quid-pro-quo relationship is, it is more of a brother-sister or parent-child type of love and relationship, rather than a real love-romance-sexual relationship-best friends-partners full marital relationship. And in my life, that leaves me with this deepest craving I can never satisfy. However, I have also learned a lot about a marriage relationship (and men), from my second husband. And he is a good person, not naive at all about where we stand.

But getting back to the article, I do not think if I were to fall in love and head into a third marriage and/or relationship with a neurotypical (with which my second husband would not have objections-as I said it is more of a brother-sister or parent-child relationship) I would at this point be going into it without a full appreciation of what it is we would both be getting into or what it would take to make it not only work but be very satisfying for both, and I am not saying just from my perspective. I think the article is more aimed at a first marriage situation for younger people. And I am very well aware of the difficulties in such an autie/Aspie and neurotypical, but there are some incredible upsides to such a relationship, as well. As implied int eh article, I also don't see where I would be making a partner with whom I was deeply in love do all the work, and I'm not sure therapy is necessarily needed for such a relationship to succeed -- although sometimes (just speaking for myself) it is fair to say I am sometimes just oblivious to a concern and pointing it out is sometimes all that is necessary for me to respond.

Another thing, and I know it is a usual assumption on the part of neurotypicals, the article did not help dispel, that an autie cannot share the emotional feelings in such a relationship in the same ways as a neurotypical; in essence, the idea that the neurotypical is carrying on, in part, a one-way emotional relationship with him or herself, while the other is having some sort of a parallel relationship (like we play as autie children). I don't think in all cases this is necessarily true. And I really can't comment in a very palatable way about how some of us might have come to have this ability to fully share with a neurotypical in such a deep relationship, because for me I know how I acquired this ability and it is certainly never a way I would recommend for anyone else. But it left me with the ability, nevertheless -- and I do mean the same ability, although such a relationship is the only area where I do have this deep emotional sharing ability, since in other areas my emotional abilities are differently on a pattern recognition basis. And, I suppose that is also what leaves me so vulnerable in this part of my life and the unsatisfied craving I have (even though I am married) -- because I am not in that type of relationship now where my deep romantic emotional connection needs are being satisfied with someone I deeply love.

But that is a different issue than my response that I thought the article was pretty fair, and probably more helpful than not in educating neurotypical society that people with autism and Asperger's do have relationships and marriages, and sometimes can even have one that is very satisfying between themselves and a neurotypical. We are a lot more human than many give us credit for.