Autism isn't fatal. Not vaccinating your child might be.

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I am sorry, I got worked up and I was wrong. There is no scientific process that can actually prove a cause, including if mercury causes autism. It is just a strong theory (performed by epidemiology) that vaccines have no connection to autism. Which does not deter the fact that you used Wikipedia to try to prove your claim despite the fact you said you never read it anymore.

I still have not found anything on PubMed about vaccines and "super viruses." I found reiki, acupuncture to treat cancer, papers by the Geiers, and Medical Hypotheses, which once had an article about the experiment of watching Oriental people at bus stops to check for similarities to people with Down's Syndrome and to retract an article saying HIV did not cause AIDS. But no claim of super viruses...please provide evidence. I would like to see these, since the only thing I remotely found involved quack cures and whale.to, where I would believe Wikipedia over those sources.

And antivaccine people have no good arguments. They change their stance every time some actual science or peer-reviewed article proves them wrong. Sheri Tenpenny once claimed dead children were "statistically insignificant" to children who somehow get autism from vaccines (except for that incident in Nigeria where thousands of children died from polio because their leaders called it witchcraft, but they do not have any money to give to these organizations so why should they care?), which I would be castigated for if I said anything like that. She also helped sponsor an event recently that called the CDC a "vaccine gestapo" and had Andrew Wakefield at the gathering AS A KEYNOTE SPEAKER. You are telling me I should listen to her because she is "balanced"? It also claimed the government should not mandate vaccines as well and it was a "personal rights" issue. They were throwing people out at Autism One because they did not agree with their views; they want nothing to do with any debate whatsoever because they have no proof that does not involve backroom deals or people using their own papers to push thousands of dollars of unnecessary treatment on people. And I still have never heard of any autistic child that has ever died of mercury poisoning, and the MMR vaccine does not even have mercury in it so I do not know what they talking about anymore. Generation Rescue claims there are too many vaccines yet tells parents to break up the MMR vaccine into three separate shots, which would add more of these "toxins" to the child's system. There is no sense to this movement at all.

Animals have completely different biological systems from humans, which is why laboratory tests are routinely flawed in their findings. You cannot compare humans to animals in that regard since they do not even get the same exact diseases these vaccines work on. The animal vaccine industry has basically no regulations compared to human vaccines, which is why so many bad things happen, and my veterinarian brother once stated to me that the vaccine is good as long as it does not kill the animal (which is appalling to me still, but I trust him).

That article is on the Huffington Post, which is a major antivaccine paper and has no clue about science whatsoever. You also have the Daily Mail here, which British people laugh at since apparently every other science article has something to do about something causing cancer...

You claimed the MATH was wrong, but not the THEORY. Name me one paper that even has a shot of correlating vaccines or some environmental issue to autism. By you saying, "well no one ever PROVED it, it might still happen" you are siding with Autism Speaks on this issue, and which would still kill children. You basically reiterated every point antivaccine people make ("Personal Rights", saying epidemiology has nothing to do with this issue), which again still kills children because of these utter lies. Vaccines are probably one of the most miraculous things in the history of science, and the government or whatever world health body needs to get as many people vaccinated as they can so children stop gasping for breath on the verge of death from pertussis, getting deathly sick from Hepatitis B (which is a HUGE health problem across the world), or being one of the "lucky" few by getting their respiratory muscles paralyzed by polio and dropping dead. There is no such thing as personal rights in this issue; more personal rights get violated and great pain inflicted by children catching it from someone who got it because the herd immunity was not strong enough in the area. Show me a few parents that, when their children got these terrible diseases (especially if they died because some other unvaccinated child gave them it) would still say they would not vaccinate if given the choice today.

Yeah, vaccines do not work all the time. Vaccine injuries happen too, but never autism. That is why herd immunity is so important. Even if you get vaccinated you can still get it if not enough people got it in your area, not just your town, but by passers by and other towns as well; that is how epidemics/pandemics happen. I do not remember the last time we had polio (except for foreigners coming here because the live oral vaccine was a little too strong, which was a manufacturing issue that can be corrected or some other change in public health) or smallpox, but the reason people get these diseases is because not enough people are vaccinated or the vaccine was botched for some reason (which happens; my skin turned a light green for a day because my Hepatitis vaccine was too strong [or so one of my teachers said], but I do not have hepatitis), but I never heard of diseases coming back because of "super viruses". I can give you vaccines not doing so well right now against influenza because the disease mutates like it is its job and always combines with something else to make something more than likely stronger like what happened during the Spanish Flu pandemic (which may be the "Super Virus" thing, but it has nothing to do with vaccines at all).

This whole antivaccine movement started because someone got paid to prove there was a cause, did everything they could to get the money including lying that he got it approved by an ethics committee and not declaring a conflict of interest. The lab that tested it was also corrupt and should get the Nobel Prize for discovering that one single measles strain in the history of the universe mutated into a DNA virus when it is actually an RNA virus, and would get the prize except for the plasmid room next to the sensitive Polymerase Chain Reaction equipment which contaminated every sample. The research assistant had to quit because Wakefield told him to go publish they found something WHEN THERE WAS NOTHING. Every single thing I said is either in a book published in America or in the Autism Omnibus Proceedings we had to give these people a reason to go to the Supreme Court because they kept crying of 'government conspiracy.' They even accused the judge of being a shill when they did not get their way. The original 'mercury causes autism' was in Medical Hypotheses (stated above) and now they have the Age of Autism blog which commits slander almost every single day because, again, they have no proof and have to do something. Every single thing they have done has only harmed society. What good argument do these people have? There is not a single shred of evidence that was ever produced that said there was a correlation, and you are sitting here saying, "well...we do not know for sure" (exactly Bob Wright's words when he was in the United Kingdom and completely disregarded the National Autistic Society,, to the shock of the entire population there).

I swear, if these parents actually saw what happened to these children they would be breaking down the doors to get the vaccines. But this entire issue happened because they worked so unbelievably well no one knows what it is like to be sick from anything like that. Which means this argument should DEFINITELY take place, I guess. Please vaccinate your children every way you can, please...

Well, it looks to me like you are all over the place on at least attempting to explain why this discussion has anything to do with the OP's topic, but whatever the connection is, it's escaping me. I did not use Wikipedia to prove any point other than that the article didn't have anything to do with Autism, or vaccinations. It doesn't. Neither term occurs there. I'm not citing the article for any other purpose than to demonstrate it has nothing to do with the discussion. That isn't exactly the same thing as citing it to prove a point I have to make.

I said, "I understand the subject [of epidemiology] is somewhat related, and why you brought it up." I'm not sure why, after my saying that, you still felt the need to make such a lengthy defense for it. I get it already!

As far as I am concerned, it's a different topic. Related yes, but not the same topic. That's just my opinion. You don't have to agree with it. Any points you are making now on that issue are like continuing to attempt to pound a nail straight in that's already bent. It's not going to sink in any further than it already has.

We both agree on the vaccine issue. That's the topic here. I don't understand for the life of my why you are persisting when I've already agreed with you on the topic at hand.

This all started because of a comment about Wikipedia I made. Do you own the site? If not, it sure seems like you're taking this whole thing a bit too personally. It was just a comment! It's NOT that important to the thread.

Can we please just let the rest of the posters get back to the topic, and quit cluttering this thread with irrelevancies?

How else are you going to show there is a cause/correlation that vaccines and autism are related? I do not know...

You stated things about "super viruses" and "personal rights" that are completely relevant to this conversation. I would like to know if you had the references, etc. I do not believe anyone making statements in a vacuum that I never heard of. I would like to see those studies.

There were also comments to other people as well, not just you.

Honestly, every time I read something I feel is not right I want to strike and stop it. But I am pretty sure the statements before the epidemiology comment (which was only secondary but the first thought I had) you made are fair game for the forum, and I would like to look at it more.

<<<though the emoticon says "hail" that's meant to be a bow of humility and not sarcastic. My apologies. I mistook you for another poster, and didn't realize it wasn't you I had originally addressed. Oh, dopey meeeee!! !! !! !! !!

Don't have the time at this moment to address your points, but possibly soon?

"A far more popular theory, that actually is supported by studies is that vaccinations tend to kill of all but the strongest viruses, thus causing the genetic development of "super viruses" that possess higher levels of immunity to the vaccines." (bolding added)

Well, I don't know where my head was at when I wrote that. Sometimes I have two or three thoughts running through at the same time, and I end up including things in one sentence that actually belong with something else. Truth is, I know of no specific studies on this topic. It is a theory though, that is repeated in college classes I've taken. The way I understand it, it's not really about mutations so much as it is about the strongest of the viruses surviving an epidemic during which vaccines are widely distributed. Those that are left, it is thought, may take many years to reproduce enough to produce a new strain, more resistant, or possibly even immune to human antibodies. It IS just a theory, but it's not an unbelievable one. Though it is, as far as I know, not a proven theory, it is also not proven to be false.

My original point is that people have the right to believe even in a theory, and the right to refuse vaccines based on what they feel is right for themselves and their children. No one has the right to force it on them.

Funny how so many people here are dead set against a cure for Autism, and fearful of being forced to submit to such a cure, but when it comes to vaccines, since we mostly believe that everyone should get them, many somehow feel that people who aren't convinced they are safe, should get them anyway.

There's a word for that.

I don't believe in anything. I do take note of theories that are backed up by evidence and good reasoning.

Maybe those people who wish to exploit the majority of the population's relative safety from diseases where good immunization exists should be required to make their children wear a badge saying: "My parents insist that I provide myself as an available vector for the following diseases: ..."


I don't find that funny at all.

For what?

If you mean the rejection of a "cure" for my form of thought processes (and hence, my mind) and the acceptance of well-evidence-supported methods of controlling dangerous diseases, I think the word would be "sensible".

I joined your page mate!We need to do what is right!And tell the truth to the ignorant crowds!

Lau: he was probably referring to me and the comments I made about the Peter Bell interview on the front page.

I get this all the time: How can you be "against" a cure but so extremely, viruently, and insanely pro-vaccine? So much so I cheat on my girlfriend with them?

That is an extremely easy answer: I am not.

There is nothing wrong with finding a cure. There are autistic people who want to be cured, and there are a lot (and a whole lot) of parents who see their children and want them to live the lives they did/did not have and the get the best things they can for them. This is true for any child in any loving relationship.

But the organizations who are searching for them the most think these children are scum of the earth. They they are better dead, they say. They think it is perfectly normal for a parent to think about killing them, then turn their back when it actually happens. These same people talk about "personal rights" then give these parents snake oil in the form of megadoses of vitamins, chiropractic, and homeopathy when they get sick. They have "cures" already they say, then they wash their hands and get their lawyers if anyone gets hurt. You expect me or any sensible human being to trust them with a "cure"? They will only use it for their own gain because they cannot stand them. Probably rip off poor people by jacking up the price too. I never said anything like, "well, you know much I want you to be vaccinated, but you don't NEED to get them..." "We know your child's autism is genetic, but this cure will not change him THAT much...we just need to get rid of that extra Chromosome 15...basic procedure really". It is all shrouded talk from these people; they do not care at all for the personal rights you like so much. They want no autistics because they cannot stand the sight of them. Apparently if you do not say it to anyone specific over a large area it is okay. They should not have their hands on a cure or anything to distribute this cure. The cure needs to be in the hands of doctors who care and listen to parents, not some organization who wants to cure because of their hatred toward people.

If you are telling me I am a hypocrite for doing all this, then I have the worst argument of anyone here. You do understand not all diseased people show symptoms? Tuberculosis is more common than you think. Polio crept silently through carriers until someone got a good dose and could not walk anymore. What about the personal rights of other people who get their children vaccinated only to have them get sick because herd immunity did not set in yet? What do you say to them? They thought it was serious and wanted to see them be healthy too...

There is a common complaint that there are too many vaccines, but if you look at the United States schedule on the CDC website you can see there are only about 10 different diseases covered. It makes no sense in most cases to get everything in in one big shot. Again: other than "personal rights" what other "good" arguments do people have to not get vaccinations? Where is your evidence that it is just a coincidence some of these these diseases are coming back? Right now you have just hearsay and your opinion.

And I finally found something that might be about vaccine mutations on PubMed. You had to type in "vaccine mutant". Unfortunately there were about 1900 hits, and most of them are on backfile so I cannot get to them easily or are completely irrelevant to anything I typed in (it gets weird on me sometimes)...

I guess ASDs are a fact of life. Most roads lead to our kids becoming statistics.

I simply choose to live life for, I'm not concerned with the cause or causitive factors which created my AS but rather glad to be able to exist in the world even if I'm wrought with adversity I don't give up!! !

I don't believe in the link between MMR and autism either, but still didn't have my son go through MMR. It simply felt wrong pumping his little body full with all that mercury etc.

Yes he has Aspergers now but he also doesn't have a single allergy. I'd be much more interested in *that* link.

[quote="Anke"]I don't believe in the link between MMR and autism either, but still didn't have my son go through MMR. It simply felt wrong pumping his little body full with all that mercury etc.

Yes he has Aspergers now but he also doesn't have a single allergy. I'd be much more interested in *that* link.[/quote]
I'm sure lots of people don't have allergies and HAVE been vaccinated.

Honestly, people who trust conspiracy theory wackos and not the actual scientists baffle me. Like stupid people who actually spend money on homeopathy (I.e. Sugar pills) instead of real medicine.

Also, someone made the point that even if someone doesn't get vaccinated, they are still protected by herd immunity. Well what happens if more and more people stop vaccinating - herd immunity is no more!

I've also noticed that anti-vaccine types tend to use emotive language, such as "oh, you can't pump their tiny little bodies full of dangerous toxins". How irritating. We need logic and reason to find the truth, not messy irrational emotions thanks.

Well, MMR is a live virus and does not have (and never had) any mercury in it at all. As for other toxins, a lot of people do not realize what is actually is in the air we breathe, and especially in fish and other aquatic life. There is not a single person, vaccinated or unvaccinated, that does not have mercury or a lot of these other dangerous "toxins" in their system; the problem it is the DOSE that makes the poison, not just the substance itself. In Defeating Autism: A Damaging Delusion (by Michael Fitzpatrick), a chemist said 10 percent of the world's population cannot be cannibalized because they have so much mercury in them, but they would not be considered "mercury poisoned" or adversely affected by the mercury in any significant way. There is a lot more mercury in breast milk and in a tuna can than in vaccines. There was more in a smallpox vaccine than all of the other vaccines we take combined now, and unfortunately that might not mean anything since no one in my country really takes it anymore. Hopefully no one says it to themselves that they would rather have their child get smallpox than mercury since being American I know it decimated an entire race of people here. Smallpox and polio were COMPLETELY eliminated by vaccines in America, and there is no reason why measles, polio, and smallpox should even be around anywhere in the world. That volcano that erupted in Iceland recently sent TONS of ash, mercury, and other things that probably should not be in the human body into the atmosphere and the winds took it with them. Hopefully that eases some people's minds when they consider getting vaccines.

As for allergies, it essentially is the same argument as antivaccine people: they say allergies are the cause or a link to promote quack medicine. Autism is more than 90% genetic and has nothing to do with bad parenting (as was commonly believed in America when it was first classified) or environmental causes, as shown by studies on twins. If there is an environmental cause (somehow), it is so small it has not been picked up. The reason why autism is more than 90% genetic and not completely 100% is that studies have shown that exposure to thalidomide and rubella (which is another good reason why you should get a vaccine) in the womb apparently increases the chances. There is just as much proof that allergies cause/are linked to autism as vaccines (which is NONE), or that these "toxins" in the vaccines actually amount to anything compared to the amount in the environment. The only reason I see for not vaccinating is if the child was too sick or immunocomprimised to actually get one.

You know, I have been thinking about this. When people talk about "personal rights", I wonder how many inform their children they did not get vaccinated for something. If you are for "personal rights", you should at least inform them about it and ask if they want to get one. Because it sounds like "personal rights" is only about people NOT getting vaccinated if you ask me...

I think I missed a word in my message: I meant to say 'Even if you get vaccinated, you might still get the disease because not enough people got vaccinated around you based on the concept of herd immunity. That is a great reason why people should be vaccinated.' I apologize, but a lot of times I do not understand the intentions and feelings behind a person's typing as well their speech. I saw wblastyn's post wanted to clarify that.

[quote="5264443377776444844"]I had some vaccinations shortly after my 13th birthday and I suddenly became emotionally unstable resulting in schizoid personality disorder type symptoms. My speech went from being completely normal and expressive to monotone and slightly autistic. I also became allergic to a host of different foods that I previously wasn't. Vaccines harm people, even if those people are a minority. I'd hedge my bets that vaccines are implicated in the rise of autism since the late eighties.[/quote]
Post hoc, ergo proptor hoc

Science Fridays has a nice article on the fraud involved in the vaccine paper: http://www.sciencefriday.com/blog/2011/ ... ine-fraud/