Asperger syndrome and Libertarianism idea

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outofplace
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14 Sep 2012, 11:59 pm

MrPickles wrote:

I have another bone to pick here.

So many of the people here are making invalid assumptions about uncaring Aspies and libertarians.

Talk about hogwash --- this is it.

First off -- Aspie lack of empathy is not the same as lack of sympathy. The form of empathy Aspies lack is the ability to guess what those around them are about to do. It is this lack that leads us into problems in social interactions with NTs. and on a side note -- NTs do not have this type of empathy with us - we baffle them and surprise as much as they do us!

There is absolutely no evidence that Aspies have any lack of empathy in the form of caring for or having concern for those around them. All evidence I have suggests that Aspies as a rule often have a extra shot of this type of empathy. My son is described by his teachers as one of their most caring and helpful students. I have a nice that is now dating a young man with Asperger's and describes him as honest, caring and kind - unlike all those self-centered jerks she went through before him (her words). I have heard the words caring and kind and helpful to describe others with Asperger's and autism.

Likewise - libertarians both little l and big L that I have known (and yes, I have known many) seem to be at least as involved in charitable acts as the rest of society (usually more involved at least for little l's). Libertarians are not opposed to great and wonderful things happening in society - we are opposed to the concept that doing so at the point of a gun is acceptable.

On the other hand there is ample evidence that for more than 10,000 years governments have proven their often total lack of sensitivity to those they have dominion over.

P.S. What originally drew me to libertarian philosophy is the strong use of logic and adherence to a set of core principles. It had nothing to do with my selfishness - as in reality I like many of my brethren am far more caring and generous than the average NT (person if you must).

I tend to agree with you here. I would also posit that those who believe in an all consuming, all caring government probably have less of a desire to care for others than those who do not. They want to abdicate their responsibility for their fellow man to a central authority so that they do not have to be concerned about helping those in need and take time out of their busy day to stoop down and help the "little people".

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nominalist
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15 Sep 2012, 8:17 pm

Libertarianism is a path of least resistance for many Autists. However, IMO, it is not a very productive path. Autists need unity, not individualism.

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weeOne
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16 Sep 2012, 11:27 am

Instead of trying to argue that ASDs are libertarian, why not argue that libertarians stole some of their ideas from ASDs?

Or, why not create a political party with the spectrum as its basis?

To paraphrase a famous line:

I won't give up my extremely progressive beliefs until they pry them from my cold dead hands.

NoPast
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18 Sep 2012, 6:51 am

right-wing libertarianism is at best childrish and naive and at worst a religion where the "free market" replace GOD

Being myself a libertarian socialist/anarchist I can share the distrust toward the government (I'm from Italy,one of the most corrupted country in the world after all) but I can't share the faith toward the "free market"(that didn't ever exist) and I feel that,while I admit that capitalism did a lot to increase the average standard of live and slash poverty , It can't be the pinnacle of human development

Quote:

What originally drew me to libertarian philosophy is the strong use of logic and adherence to a set of core principles.

yeah,libertarianism tends to attract a lot of people because it is internally coherent. It seems perfect until you start to question the core principles and questioning these core principles it is very hard for people who growth up in a capitalistic\ultraindividualistic culture

and ,oh I must say this,because most of its adherent are priviliged White Male living in the first world,so the less are aliene to suffer from any form of discrimination and the most likely to do well in a Social Darwinian world

right-wing libertarians hand wawe the fact that wealth is a form of power,that the "free market" has a strong tendency to monopoly and overconsumation crisis and vast inequalities of wealth and most people(the majority of world population) don't have access to the means of production. The combination of all these things will make a right-libertarians world basically unbearable for the vast majority of the population.

thewhitrbbit
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18 Sep 2012, 9:32 am

I'll def admit some libertarians are batshit crazy and do live in a dream world.

Still a lot of the ideas applied in moderation can be very good for us.

MagicToenail
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18 Sep 2012, 11:53 pm

I hope there are more Libertarians of the John Stuart Mill variety than the Ayn Rand Variety among Aspies. Rand was a nasty piece of work.
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GiantHockeyFan
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19 Sep 2012, 7:18 am

marshall wrote:

The problem is a lot of the time "climbing the social ladder" in the corporate world means not only being technically skilled, but also being good at playing the social games and office politics necessary to get to the top and stay there. It seems people on the autism spectrum are at a huge disadvantage in the libertarian free-market jungle. :roll:

The real world doesn't consist of individuals competing purely on individual merit. It consists of individuals jostling for power in complex social hierarchies.

I wish it didn't take me years before this was pounded into my head. Libertarianism is the perfect philosophy.... if everyone is like me and there were no hierarchies. Unfortunately reality is a wee bit different from theory. It took me a LONG time before I understood why incompetent people ended up high in organization since in theory it should always be the best due to the organization's self-interest. Boy, was I naive and delusional!

NoPast
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19 Sep 2012, 3:39 pm

GiantHockeyFan wrote:

exactly.....libertarianism fuctions in a world where people have the exact same amount of power(because the entire concept of "free exchange" between a powerful rich and a powerless poor is a joke) and everyone is a fully-informed uber-rational utility maximizer drone(but law abider!)

for example a libertarian would claim that the "free market" could take care of racial problems because racist business would be outcompeted by a non-racist business....this would be true in a world of perfect rational people,but in the real world government needed to step in with the Civil Rights Act because the inverse was actually true,most people were willing to suffer a personal loss or pay more than dealing with black people

Kait
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19 Sep 2012, 5:59 pm

I never really noticed a connection between asperger's and libertarian ideas. However, just because I haven't noticed, that doesn't mean it's there. I don't think libertarianism is all about selfishness and not caring for the poor though. Sometimes it is, but I've met a variety of people who consider themselves libertarian from conservative business types to punk rock types who's ideas border on anarchism. It seems to encompass a large variety of beliefs about getting the government out of the way.

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GiantHockeyFan
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20 Sep 2012, 8:36 am

Kait wrote:

I never really noticed a connection between asperger's and libertarian ideas.

NoPast wrote:

Yes, I used to post at a forum with many minimum wage earners and couldn't understand why they would get upset when I told them they are paid that because that is their 'fair' free market wage and if they were worth more they would be paid more. Boy, did reality hit me hard once I saw people with no skills making 6 figures. Basically, I understand why so many rich people support libertarianism: because of useful idiots like me who are incredible naive as to how the world really works.

Then again, many "Libertarians" and "Anarchists" are complete selfish hypocrites and don't seem to grasp principals. In particular, one discussion on an Anarchist forum was demanding the US government fortify the border with Mexico. Now, I'm not interested in debating that issue but do these morons not understand what Anarchy means?? It seems to me many Libertarians want government out of the way... except when it directly benefits them. Principles came first for me but I quickly found how rare I was.

MrPickles
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21 Sep 2012, 5:20 pm

nominalist wrote:

Libertarianism is a path of least resistance for many Autists. However, IMO, it is not a very productive path. Autists need unity, not individualism.

What - what!! You think that the only way to find unity is to throw away my individualism? How about you throw away your individualism and follow after me for unity! The call of all dictators is unity above all else. No, I think that we should keep our individualism.

Really -- we (a large number of Auts & Aspies) can come together to do some great things as cooperating individuals. Lets learn to be cooperative and not strive for unthinking unity!

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KyleClark
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21 Sep 2012, 8:28 pm

I find this surprising because I my BIG Hobby is Libertarian idealism, I'm glad other Aspies share my passion =D

There are many shades of Libertarianism and I believe true Libertarianism will never be fully achieved as long as long as we live in a democracy. In the end the debate has gotten down to principle which I don't think will amount to anything but it is sure fun to have.

Ztrain
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22 Sep 2012, 7:50 am

I personally am a statist and I would love o see the government create a program to empower aspie children.

Kait
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22 Sep 2012, 8:53 am

GiantHockeyFan wrote:

If you pay enough attention, you will find that both groups are similar in many ways. In particular, you will find that most Libertarians are attracted to technology,usually aren't very outgoing, usually male and are naive as to how the world really works. In short, it would have been a surprise had I NOT embraced it. It also appeals to our need for logic and concrete ideas.

[/quote]

Yeah, no, I get it. I've just never noticed it before. I actually used to think of myself as a libertarian. Still do, actually, although I don't agree with everything the libertarian party believes in. I don't like conforming to parties at all actually. I'd rather just think for myself. (BTW... That doesn't me I'm selfish and that I don't care for people...it just means that I don't do things just because other people do them or want me to).

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thewhitrbbit
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22 Sep 2012, 9:05 am

One of the most libertarian people I know is a paramedic and he volunteers a lot as a paramedic for free.

To assume all libertarians are selfish is foolish.

Look at the VP tax returns. Paul Ryan who is somewhat libertarian donated 4x more money than Biden despite making less than Biden.

I don't agree some parts of Libertarianism either, but I absolutely agree with it's emphasis on personal freedom and getting govt and business out of the same bed.

GiantHockeyFan
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22 Sep 2012, 4:54 pm

I would consider myself a libertarian NOT a Libertarian. Note that even thougbain the surface they are the same there is a BIG difference between the two. Basically, I believe in certain blasphemous ideas like mandatory seatbelt laws and take a more Georgist idea when it comes to property rights. Sorry I can't elaborate as my story would be novel length but I learned the hard way who was REALLY behind Libertarian ideas and why. So embrace freedom and responsibility but be very mindful of the man behind the curtain.

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