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MindEngine
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23 Apr 2022, 12:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
Evolution works only when genetic changes provide an advantage to reproductive success.  People with autism often complain about being involuntarily celibate.  Therefore, Autism provides no advantage to reproductive success.  Personally, I believe that if autism is somehow a product of evolutionary processes, it is a step backwards in those processes.

As long as neurodiverse people and neurotypical people can produce viable offspring together, they will be of the same species.

As long as neurodiversity limits our physical and social capabilities, we will not be superior to neurotypical people.


Yes I agree with you. As it is now autism is clearly a syndrome who decreases the chance of reproduction, especially the most severe conditions. Although mildly affected individuals could be somehow 'take the best of both worlds', their reproductive success is still way below NTs so I think autism, like other conditions affecting reproduction, is actually a way out from fitness which is far more likely to bring to extinction than to speciation. The only way autistic people does not disappear is that autism is generated spontaneously in NT popolation (normal breeding population), thus replacing the autistics which does not reproduce.
You can see autism like salt. A bit improves the taste of food, but too much spoil it.
Following Post's Utopia, I think that the only way autistic can speciate, it would be necessary that the neurodiverisity is engineered (like in breeding selection in dogs or cat or fish) to selectively admit useful features while filtering and possibly discarding the most adverse features, especially on reproduction. This could be worked out in a variety of ways, but my point is that without a direct, willful, intervetion it's pretty unlikely that 'speciation' will take place at every appreciable rate. At this time we don't have the technology to do it, and using selective breeding like in non-human animals would require too much time for each new generation to be viable for reproductive sex (and you need a lot of generations).
Also I don't think that autistic people will become another specie :D The target of forming social self-sustaining community would be a rather interesting success in itself. Anyway the idea is very interesting and need to be discussed although it's more of a sci-fi topic.


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auntblabby
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23 Apr 2022, 9:55 pm

there must be some kind of quasi-darwinian "fitness" involved in the fact that autistics keep being birthed now and then by NTs. i wonder what valuable niche auties fill in this regard, that evolution keeps us around like it has?



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23 Apr 2022, 9:59 pm

Maybe this niche?


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24 Apr 2022, 1:45 am

^^^ ah so :study:



MindEngine
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24 Apr 2022, 6:00 am

auntblabby wrote:
there must be some kind of quasi-darwinian "fitness" involved in the fact that autistics keep being birthed now and then by NTs. i wonder what valuable niche auties fill in this regard, that evolution keeps us around like it has?


Well like for resistance to illness, evolution bet on diversity in the sense that hope that some of the offspring will actually do it. This is better achieved thru diversification, even if it might not be very fit, because evolution does not know what nature/environment will show up next, therefore keeping a everything-might-happen approach makes sense of producing individuals whose variation could be comparatevely be worst that average population but that in an estinction-like situation might escape it. What is true for autism is true for a lot of worst-than-best conditions (including medical ones), which are kept inside genepool even if plain logic would suggest they should be discarded.


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auntblabby
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24 Apr 2022, 6:09 am

as spock might say, "Fascinating..." :chin:



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24 Apr 2022, 7:39 am

Wait a minute ,, So. Let me clarify this , So Auties might be likened to the Platypus of the gene pool ?
But we keep getting birthed ? And seems many of us can be quite successful . (Or not).
But seems lots of us develop a rather pragmatic point of veiw . Around Issues of life .
( possibly a survival skill)


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carlos55
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24 Apr 2022, 8:59 am

De novo mutations happen randomly in humans for reasons not understood.

Some of these including severe autism give no advantages and many sufferers never form relationships so don’t pass on there genes.

So it’s unlikely autism is another form of human anymore than the multiple disabilities seen present at birth are another different human.

In other words s**t happens for no particular reason and ASD is nothing special


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24 Apr 2022, 4:35 pm

Are there really any such thing as coincidences . Have seen repeatedly that my mind brain , seems to operate quite different from those that appear to be NT . And repeated and varying, highly necessary special interests have developed seemed often time in many subjects , to allow me a wider frame of reference than a number of NTs if they are covering a topic, am aware of .In addition am able to draw various applicable conclusions , extrapolations than a lot of N Ts have interacted with . Never consider myself superior , just figured different frames of reference .
The access to more neural fiber connections seem to allow me on good days to assemble info in a variety of ways .
Just a FYI .. also grew up with a non verbal sister whom was possibly not very good on the social end of the spectrum. But Was brilliant at things she did , if it was her interest . Except for talking.
These are curiosities that Are quite pronounced , whenever I dwell on this topic. 8O


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24 Apr 2022, 8:18 pm

i just stumbled from one situation to another until retirement. finally i've found something i'm competent at, if not exactly confident at...



MindEngine
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25 Apr 2022, 10:23 am

I also have the obsession of knowing-everything. I do this generally by buying and reading books on the most different topics (from history to psychology to biology to geology to engineering to geopolitics etc.. etc...).
I've finally decided to pursue my interests in more organized way, basically enroll in University and get a degree on a topic (I live in Europe and here university is very cheap, about 1000 eur/year). I just started to feel, at my 40, I need to leave a track of what I rather that just pursuing interests in a clumsy and unconclusive way. Also the degree is a way of signaling I've reached a certain expertise level in a topic, which is useful for social interactions (at least superficial ones, which are also the most productive and stimulating: I love learning new things although I find it very stressing).


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25 Apr 2022, 12:13 pm

MindEngine wrote:
I also have the obsession of knowing-everything. I do this generally by buying and reading books...
Beware of books! They proliferate.

My bride and I are both bibliophiles. We both have accumulated many books. She actually reads them, I just accumulate them with the hope of someday reading them.

In the last few years we have started donating no-longer-wanted books. It's not been enough.


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MindEngine
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25 Apr 2022, 1:05 pm

Double Retired wrote:
MindEngine wrote:
I also have the obsession of knowing-everything. I do this generally by buying and reading books...
Beware of books! They proliferate.

My bride and I are both bibliophiles. We both have accumulated many books. She actually reads them, I just accumulate them with the hope of someday reading them.

In the last few years we have started donating no-longer-wanted books. It's not been enough.


Too late double... too late...
I've already been in accumulate/donate cycle, but to my defense I read a lot of books... I just buy more I can ultimately read!


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25 Apr 2022, 2:23 pm

MindEngine wrote:
Double Retired wrote:
MindEngine wrote:
I also have the obsession of knowing-everything. I do this generally by buying and reading books...
Beware of books! They proliferate.

My bride and I are both bibliophiles. We both have accumulated many books. She actually reads them, I just accumulate them with the hope of someday reading them.

In the last few years we have started donating no-longer-wanted books. It's not been enough.


Too late double... too late...
I've already been in accumulate/donate cycle, but to my defense I read a lot of books... I just buy more I can ultimately read!
Sigh. Good luck with that.

I find bookshelves can also hold decades of magazines I hope to read.

And one of my Retireds was from 20 years in computer security (I was more of a bureaucrat than a technician) so I have limited trust of the Internet. In addition to books and magazines I have a lot of other media for things other folk stream.

But I think many of my audio and video discs have sufficiently obscure content that it might be difficult to rely on the Internet for the material.

Fortunately, otherwise I am a bit of a minimalist. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about my bride.


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When diagnosed I bought champagne!
I finally knew why people were strange.