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BuyerBeware
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16 Jul 2013, 7:27 am

DVCal wrote:
This could possibly lead to way of detecting a group at very high risk of developing autism, if those can lead to test that say this fetus has an 80% chance of developing autism, it can be aborted, before the damage is born.


YOU SHUT UP.

YOU SHUT UP RIGHT NOW.

I'm really sorry that you have been taught to hate yourself so much. Let me guess-- you're more than high functioning enough to be constantly conscious of your deficits, but not enough to "fix" them easily. You're somewhere in your very late 20's to mid 30's.

It seems to be the demographic for self-hatred. Young enough to have gotten a diagnosis before you really knew who you were and what you could be capable of; not young enough to have benefitted from any of the shifts that have occurred in the last seven to ten years.

Man, I've been there. Been there, done that, thank God for Blue Cross or I'd still be paying off the hospital bill. I will carry the scars for the rest of my life...

...but I'm not going back.

I AM NOT A MONSTER.

I AM NOT AN ABORTION.

MY LIFE IS JUST AS GOOD, JUST AS WORTHWHILE, AS ANY NEUROTYPICAL'S.

SO IS YOURS. I'd like to bitchslap the people who taught this to you, then give you a nice big hug and hang out with you doing cool stuff until you learn to get up and see yourself as a human being.

I WILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH ANYONE WHO ATTEMPTS TO ENFORCE OTHERWISE.


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BuyerBeware
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16 Jul 2013, 7:30 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
I disagree with the OP about people on the spectrum not being born. I believe in the sanctity of life from conception until natural death. I feel that all human life should be protected, including the lives of everybody who's on the Autistic Spectrum. I also don't suffer from AS, I suffer from the attitudes of the uneducated public who are rooting for Jenny McCarthy, and Autism Speaks.


Hear, hear!! Amen!!

Autism is a trait I happen to have.

Hazel eyes, brown hair, tendency to freckle in the sun, autism.

Other than for the bigoted attitudes of a frighteningly vocal minority, it's of about as much consequence.

I'll keep my permission to like myself, and to view myself as a human being of equal value.


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06 Aug 2013, 9:21 am

DVCal wrote:
This could possibly lead to way of detecting a group at very high risk of developing autism, if those can lead to test that say this fetus has an 80% chance of developing autism, it can be aborted, before the damage is born.


I wish I could find the study, but I remember reading somewhere that the more high-functioning one was on the spectrum, the less likely environmental causes were the source. People with low-functioning autism were also more likely to have large amounts of inflammatory markers, while those with normal functioning were not. Will look for it later.

If anyone wants to pore through it, the paper is here: http://www.nature.com/tp/journal/v3/n7/ ... 01350a.pdf The authors observe a strong correlation between the antibodies and stereotypical behavior.

Edit2: Problems with the study: The antibodies were associated with behavioral repetition only, as opposed to the social communication problems which I think bothers people with autism the most.
- No mention on how these antibodies relate to cognitive difficulties and severity of autism.
- Lack of randomization. Mothers were consented and enrolled in a program.



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06 Aug 2013, 11:53 am

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... es&f=false

According to the link above, a large percentage of those with ASD have family members with autoimmune disorders, but most don't.

The biggest problems with studying ASD is the heterogeneous nature of those who are diagnosed. This causes genetically and physically unrelated people to be lumped in the same category. I suspect though, that there is a huge difference between those with ASD whose parents had immunodysfunction, and those who are offspring of hyperlogical scientists and libertarianish programmers of Silicon Valley. I suspect that latter group has a more normal neurocognitive profile, lower percentage of immune abnormalities, less difficulty with abstraction, and more academic interests.



yelekam
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07 Aug 2013, 9:30 pm

Mihero wrote:
While that may be good news I don't see any explanation for the sudden increase in autism over the past 20 years. I do know that ten years ago the statistics were like 1 out of every 150 children being born and that was considered a huge increase over the past. Last I heard, that rate had increased to an even worse statistic although I can't recall now what that number was. I would like to know what explanation there is for this before coming to any kind of conclusions.


New statistics are 1 in 88, though I'd call that an improvement.

and projections indicate that it will be 1 in 50 by 2025

studies have shown that if a person lived 2000 years ago and had children, then they are the ancestor of everybody. This means that those who have children today are the ancestors of all of humanity in the future. Those who are carriers of autistic genes will reproduce and spread the genetics in the mix, which will broaden it over generations of genetic carriers spreading it to children, who grow up and have even more children, and the number of carriers will increase with each generation. Eventually autism will take up at least a quarter of the human population, if not the majority population.



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08 Aug 2013, 7:50 am

Last statistic I read was 1 in 54, though that might be for boys only.

The South Korea study was the one that pushed me to get tested. There might be some variation in race/culture, but that one gave what I thought was an accurate figure because it allowed non-voluntary testing of a completely random population (in SK, you can test whole swaths of schoolkids without parental consent). It put the numbers, for all forms of ASD combined, at 1 in 38.

Makes you wonder, at what percentage of the population are we going to be nominally at least considered "different, not less," as it is popular to consider blonde- or red-haired people, blue-eyed people, left-handed people (though my dad remembered, back in the '50s, being smacked by his paternal grandmother for "showing the mark of Satan," ie being left-handed), dark-skinned people, and folks with epicanthal folds??


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08 Aug 2013, 9:11 am

20% of the autists also happen to be more severely autistic and 80% are more high functioning Aspies whose brains show increased activity in some parts of the left hemisphere when compared to both the autists and neurotypicals, so it could be biologically different and caused by different reasons.



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08 Aug 2013, 10:05 am

Suggesting that any child should be aborted because they might be a bit different is horrendous. My son is autistic and I love him just the way he is, the thought of him being terminated before birth just hurts me so much. And I myself have had a good life despite being Aspergers, it may have been tough at times, but I always found a way to make it all worthwhile :)


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08 Aug 2013, 2:11 pm

This thread is old enough that the offense has been made and passed. While I completely disagree with the thought process of aborting babies who have an increased risk of being on the spectrum. This topic reminds me of the discussions of whether someone who has downs syndrome or is a "little person" should be aborted if determined by testing, prior to birth. On the one hand you have potential for suffering. On the other hand, you have the potential for a wonderful human being that could be a positive influence on someones life, be the person who discovers major cures or scientific breakthroughs, etc. (depending on the case). On one hand you have a financial burden that society will be expected to shoulder most likely, on the other hand you may have a person completely able to function without financial charity from society.

If you are going to have a child that could one day be an obligation for society to provide care, finances, etc. Then you have to accept the fact that there will be those who feel this should be avoided, if detectable, through abortive means, etc. This doesn't make the topic any easier to stomach, but please don't be the type of person who insults others, rejects others, degrades others (thereby reinforcing negative stereotypes), just because you are offended that someone sees the negative social impacts from and looks for means to avoid them. And dont be offended because someone has lived a miserable life and would prefer to have never been born. Offer support. Dont reinforce nor affirm their misery. Give them a reason to doubt their death wish.


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08 Aug 2013, 2:18 pm

Wow, this thread seems to have really hit a nerve! Why would you be so angered by the opinion of one person who has no power influence over you?

I believe in informed choice and as such support any scientific advancement in screening for autism - or anything else. I do not believe in the so-called "sanctity" of any life, autistic or otherwise. If someone does believe in the sanctity of life - that's fine, they're free to base their choices on that belief. They are not free to base my choices on it, however.

Also, as a little side-note on the practical aspect of this:

Percentage of Americans who consider themselves "pro-life": about 45% [1]
Percentage of fetuses with Down Syndrome that are aborted in USA: 87% to 98% [2]

Unless pro-lifers are somehow less likely than others to have pregnancies with Down Syndrome, I can only conclude that people's views change pretty drastically when they're really confronted with a situation that was previously only a hypothetical!

[1] http://www.gallup.com/poll/147734/ameri ... lines.aspx
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome


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08 Aug 2013, 2:35 pm

Reminder: Keep the discussion civil folks.


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08 Aug 2013, 2:45 pm

I read the article everybody so you can congratulate me on that later :wink:

Seriously though the article is very interesting and I think that this kind of research is an important step forwards in terms of autism.


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08 Aug 2013, 2:54 pm

FlanMaster wrote:
This thread is old enough that the offense has been made and passed. While I completely disagree with the thought process of aborting babies who have an increased risk of being on the spectrum. This topic reminds me of the discussions of whether someone who has downs syndrome or is a "little person" should be aborted if determined by testing, prior to birth. On the one hand you have potential for suffering. On the other hand, you have the potential for a wonderful human being that could be a positive influence on someones life, be the person who discovers major cures or scientific breakthroughs, etc. (depending on the case). On one hand you have a financial burden that society will be expected to shoulder most likely, on the other hand you may have a person completely able to function without financial charity from society.

If you are going to have a child that could one day be an obligation for society to provide care, finances, etc. Then you have to accept the fact that there will be those who feel this should be avoided, if detectable, through abortive means, etc. This doesn't make the topic any easier to stomach, but please don't be the type of person who insults others, rejects others, degrades others (thereby reinforcing negative stereotypes), just because you are offended that someone sees the negative social impacts from and looks for means to avoid them. And don't be offended because someone has lived a miserable life and would prefer to have never been born. Offer support. Don't reinforce nor affirm their misery. Give them a reason to doubt their death wish.

Well ... according to This Article on the Centers for Disease Control website, 18.5% of all reported pregnancies in 2009 resulted in abortion.

(227 abortions per 1000 live births, or 227 abortions per 1227 pregnancies)

If we took the extreme view that 1 out of 50 people born today have some form of autism, then the number increases to 247 abortions per 1000 live births, or 247 abortions per 1247 pregnancies, for an increase in the abortion rate from 18.5% to 19.8%; a difference of 1.3 percentage points.

What's the point?

The point is that even if all autistic fetuses were aborted in one year, the total increase in the number of aborted fetuses would be less than 1.5%.

But so what? It's a woman's right to choose whether or not she wants an abortion, and no one else's!



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08 Aug 2013, 2:59 pm

Shh, I tried to steer clear of the A-word. It evokes such high emotion.


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08 Aug 2013, 3:00 pm

babybird wrote:
Shh, I tried to steer clear of the A-word. It evokes such high emotion.

Yeah ... A-Rod and his steroid thing ... what a freekin mess that turned out to be!



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08 Aug 2013, 9:31 pm

FMX wrote:
Wow, this thread seems to have really hit a nerve! Why would you be so angered by the opinion of one person who has no power influence over you?


Percentage of Americans who consider themselves "pro-life": about 45% [1]
Percentage of fetuses with Down Syndrome that are aborted in USA: 87% to 98% [2]



Let's take it to its logical conclusion, the vast majority of people, pro-life or otherwise, will use abortion when they realize their own life and/or the life of their family will be severely affected. Another interesting tidbit, Christians have more abortions than atheists. http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/03/18/c ... higher.htm

I guess the "sanctity of life" argument only applies when people aren't in that situation themselves.