extraided asperger sufferer, Talha Ahsan in solitary

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Aspergers seems completely irrelevant. Why bring it up?

perhaps so his defense team can portray him as a victim of his own vulnerability, theyll have the smallest violin in the world out on play for him.
if crims have got the mental capacity to know what they are doing;then they shoud be given no special allowances such as disability being the reason for his actions.

In other words, the defense is presenting Asperger's Syndrome (AS) in an Appeal to Pity as a means of playing AS as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. The only thing pathetic in their defensive strategy is that they would try to use AS as a mitigating factor of criminal intent and action.

Let Him Rot!

Because of the double standards in justice in the Gary McKinnon vs Talha Ahsan extradition cases.

It's difficult to deny that the Talha Ahsan case was a cock up of justice. The matter would have been better resolved in Britain many years ago as at the time he was involved in Azzam publications his actions were legal under British law. The US had no powers to extradite him back then.

Of course, many Americans like to think they are right 100% of the time and they have the God given authority to impose their laws on the rest of the world and apply them retroactively as well. The American system of justice with plea bargaining and no right to a speedy trial means that nobody will ever find out the truth of whether Talha Ahsan is really guilty or not.

The British system of justice isn't perfect but cock ups like this are far less likely to happen.

Following the law of the jurisdiction in which one is is irrelevant... sure...Women, prepare for some floggings for driving, after all that is Saudi law!

Rot for something that is not a crime in a country in which he lives? I suppose we must all brush up on our American laws, as ignorance of American law is no defence! I suppose you are one who claims there is no Empire...

He had a minimal role, he had an indirect role with the group including Babar Ahmad. He was obsesses with the small detail, he missed the bigger picture, he is mentally ill. Everything is bad about his asperger syndrome, he suffers from asperger syndrome, he is vulnerabl;e, reserved and sensitive.

Talha Ahsan versus Gary McKinnon

Talha Ahsan - Not Operate Website

Although he admitted to sending out orders of videos and other merchandise sold through the websites, Ahsan, wearing thick, black-frame eyeglasses, said he only had "general knowledge" of the sites and did not operate them. According to his attorney, Richard Reeve, Ahsan has been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. Throughout Tuesday's hearing, he frequently asked Reeve to explain what Hall was asking. Several times, Ahsan insisted that Reeve make it clear he only had a "mitigating" role in the terrorist scheme.

His attorney, Richard Reeve, informed Hall that Talha Ahsan was diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, but it has not affected his ability to assist in his own defense. He also described Talha Ahsan as "very intelligent".

http://www.nhregister.com/general-news/20131210/2-british-citizens-plead-guilty-in-new-haven-federal-court-to-aiding-terroristsTalha Ahsan - Plea Bargain

Throughout the hearing, Talha Ahsan frequently asked Reeve to explain what Hall was asking. Several times he insisted that Reeve make it clear he only had a "mitigating" role in the terrorist scheme. Reeve told Hall that Talha Ahsan "did not have personal knowledge" of some of the allegations in the agreement, and said that he did not administer the websites. Reeve also asserted federal sentencing guidelines for terrorist offenses are "unreasonable" and use "one cookie-cutter approach" for defendants, no matter what their specific actions

I'm not sure the "preferential treatment" and racism claims are fair. Gary McKinnon's extradition request was refused because there was evidence (I believe of a scientific nature, rather than anecdotal) that he would kill himself if forced to go through the American justice system. It was probably more a result of his depression or a combination of the depression and Asperger's, rather than the Asperger's alone which made them reconsider the request.

Dr Quinton Deeley recommended that Talha Ahsan receive specialist care for his condition after he was diagnosed in 2009: "It should be noted that by virtue of his Asperger's syndrome and depressive disorder, (Talha) is an extremely vulnerable individual who, from a psychiatric perspective, would be more appropriately placed in a specialist service for adults with autistic disorders and co-morbid mental health problems, with a level of security dictated by his risk assessment".

A European Court of Human Rights hearing in March 2012 said that before Talha was diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, "a psychiatrist had predicted a high risk of serious depression leading to suicide if the third applicant (Ahsan) were to be extradited and placed in solitary confinement for a long period".

An American criminologist detailed the "heightened difficulties experienced by those with Asperger's syndrome in federal prisons and the absence of proper facilities within the Bureau of Prisons to treat the condition" in a submission to the ECHR.

A letter published in the British Medical Journal in July 2012 about human rights of prisoners specifically mentions Talha Ahsan and states that "He has been described as an exceptional student with a mental illness that will render him a vulnerable individual in prison. The harsh reality of solitary confinement in the USA would daunt any human being, and with a disability affecting both communication and information processing (as described by the National Autistic Society) this would be unbearable for Talha".

According to a medico legal report in 2009, Ahsan is "an extremely vulnerable individual who from a psychiatric perspective would be more appropriately placed in a specialist service for adults with autistic disorders." If Gary McKinnon is a suicide risk, then surely this equally applies to Talha Ahsan.

Most of that is just a massively fancy way of saying he has a severe autism spectrum disorder. And the quote says "if the third applicant (Ahsan) were to be extradited and placed in solitary confinement for a long period", as I understand it McKinnon's evidence suggested he'd kill himself regardless of his position in the US justice system, Ahsan's evidence specifically relates to long period of solitary confinement, something that's unlikely given the reasonably high profile nature of his case.

Who at the ECHR said that? Because if somebody from Ahsan's party said it, it probably doesn't count, and the British government does not like the ECHR Theresa May has said she's considered leaving. I doubt they care what the ECHR thinks, unless it legally prevents them from deporting him (which it clearly didn't).

Gary McKinnon's request was technically refused because the chances of a successful conviction were "not high" (though if it wasn't for Asperger's & Depression they'd probably have sent him anyway.) Ahsan's successful conviction was presumably thought more likely.

The implication I'm getting from most of this is that he knew what he was doing, and he knew it was wrong. If this is the case, using Asperger's as an excuse is deplorable. Asperger's is not an excuse to break the law when you know an activity is wrong (and it's severely pushing it when you don't know the activity is wrong).

Terrorism convicts often end up in ADX Florence. As there was no guarantee of a return to Britain or a low security prison following a prosecution or guilty plea deal in an American court, then it was only sensible to hold a worst case scenario of what could happen.



Wrong. Gary McKinnon's case was also rejected by the ECHR. The decision of Theresa May to block the extradition of Gary McKinnon resulted from a report by Home Office appointed psychiatrists as it would be incompatible with Article 3 of the Human Rights Act 1998. A British law.

In February 2013 Material came to light in the New Statesman magazine that the extradition of Babar Ahmad and Talha Ahsan had less to do with whether they were guilty and more to do with healing strained UK EU diplomatic relations. The article described a secret meeting that had taken place between judges from the ECHR and the US Supreme Court, plus a UK legal counsellor - all of which were involved in the extradition case.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... -detention

http://aspergersupport.org.uk/campaigns ... hsan6.html



Wrong. Read above.



At the time when Talha Ahsan was involved in Azzam publications his actions were legal under British law. As the Extradition Act 2003 was yet to be passed and he had never visited the US then American law did not apply to him. All this "he knew it was wrong" argument doesn't hold any substance if you actually understand the case.

As mentioned, raising this could potentially help the defense's case, but it also adds to the spread of disinformation about ASDs. Due to this relentless focus on the negative, in the public mind, we are violent, we are bad, we are dangerous.

I just posted a rant over an article on an autistic teen boy who got sexually abused and bullied by two teen girls. The girls took pictures of their abuse. I notice the lack of coverage on that. (http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5964960 ... t=#5964960)

Instead of fair representation, the media prefer to codify and sensationalize autistics across the spectrum.

I'm mad as hell.

The law doesn't quite work like that though...


What does McKinnon's case being rejected have to do with anything I said? I genuinely can't see a link.



The New Statesman is an opinion site, it is not a substitute for actual journalism.


Again. Speculation is great, reliable news sources are better. And the New Statesman article claims he didn't use the suicide defence, and nobody else tried it either, that's likely to be a key difference, as the McKinnon case appeared to rest on the likelihood of suicide...



He doesn't need to have set foot in the US for it to be America's jurisdiction, especially for internet based crimes, for example if the domain name was a ". com" domain name or the offending content was hosted in the US it's generally considered to be America's jurisdiction regardless of where the crime physically takes place.

Please explain why the "he knew it was wrong" argument doesn't apply? You post links claiming he was very intelligent, which somewhat implies he knew it was wrong or knew it was likely illegal even if he thought it was the right thing to do.

If he had been duped or lacked a moral compass the family would be using that argument instead, but no they're trying to use Asperger's as a get out of jail free card. Whether you agree with the conditions he's being kept in or not, there was enough credible evidence for his deportation and conviction (and you've yet to present a compelling argument in his favour, other than "Gary McKinnon wasn't deported"), so why should he get to use Asperger's to get away with it?

I'm assuming you are an American and have a deeper knowledge of US law than I do.

Explain in detail how the law works in situations like this and why I am wrong.



What exactly do you consider is a reliable news source, and why?



If what you are saying is true then if an American citizen hosts offending content on a server physically located in Britain with a .uk domain name then is it Britain's jurisdiction even if the person in question has never stepped foot on British soil and the crime is not a crime in the US?



You have to look at the timing of the involvement with Azzam Publications and what laws were in force back then. It could be argued that the Extradition Act 2003 was being applied retroactively in both the Talha Ahsan and Gary McKinnon cases as they carried out their activities before 2003.

The way the plea bargaining system works is that nobody knows for sure whether Talha Ahsan is guilty or not. It's totally illogical system of justice compared with a trial in a British court. Unfortunately only a tiny minority of Americans seriously question the credibility or sensibility of their system of justice.

I'm British. What I mean is, if you assume the worst happens to every prisoner nobody ever ends up in prison, because what happens if they are killed there?



I mean a site that is independent from the case and is dedicated to providing news based upon fact. The article you posted was from the opinion section of the New Statesman, and therefore by the site's own admission is not news, but instead opinion.


Technically yes. Whether Britain elects to ask or not, and whether America consents to the deportation or not are different matters, but on paper if it's hosted in the UK and with a ". uk" domain name it should be Britain's jurisdiction...


So the argument is not that he didn't break the law, but that he shouldn't be deported because the deportation agreement wasn't made at the time he broke the law?



The plea bargaining system makes sense, it's designed to stop trials dragging out and costing money. The idea being that if somebody pleads guilty early, it costs less money, so in return for the money and time they've saved they get a more lenient sentence. On paper, he'll presumably have plead guilty, and the fact he took plea bargain suggests he's either guilty or the evidence is stacked against him to the point where won't be able to prove otherwise.

I don't know what silly argument this is. The Americans like to protect their prisoners in supermax as prized state property.



Could you provide me examples of these sites? All mainstream media sites add spin and sensationalism to their articles and many just copy others or buy their news from agencies like Reuters rather than obtain it directly from the source.



I checked and it is published in the UK Politics section.



Yes. I consider it very dishonest to prosecute using a law that is implemented after the alleged crime was committed. Only the laws in force at the time should be used. If you disagree then it effectively opens up an avenue for governments to create new laws to jail people they do not like for an action they carried out decades ago that was perfectly legal at the time.

Both Talha Ahsan and Gary McKinnon should have been put on trial in a British court.



So in other words, saving money is more important than determining whether a defendant is genuinely innocent or guilty? I can't see the justice in this. Plea bargaining is a peculiar feature of the American system of justice that in practice is extortionism and judicial blackmail.

Nigel Farage of UKIP condemned America’s "abhorrent" plea bargain system which he claims has forced close friend Christopher Tappin to plead guilty to a crime he did not commit.

http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/ukip_s_n ... _1_1677203



I'm not party to certain information about the case that is not in the public domain but there could be good reasons why he entered into a guilty plea. The fact that he entered into a guilty plea on the same day as Babar Ahmad points to it being a recommendation from their lawyers. They know the American legal system better than we both do, and they could have reached a conclusion that if they didn't enter into a guilty plea then they would have remained in pre-trial detention for the rest of their lives whilst the US Government pretended to complete the finishing touches.