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Fnord
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17 Apr 2016, 1:22 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The author of the above article, John Slegers, is a programmer and website developer. He is neither a sociologist nor a psychologist.
So?! Why does that matter at all?!?! Why would being a programmer and website developer rather than a sociologist nor a psychologist disqualify someone from being an expert in the field of Autism? ...
Because he (apparently) has no officially recognized formal training in autistic studies, and it is fallacious to consider an expert in one field to automatically be an expert in any other field.
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Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam - also known as: argument from authority, appeal to false authority, argument from false authority, et cetera). Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument.
Source: This article on the "Logically Fallacious" website



Aristophanes
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17 Apr 2016, 1:36 pm

Fnord wrote:
aspiesavant wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The author of the above article, John Slegers, is a programmer and website developer. He is neither a sociologist nor a psychologist.
So?! Why does that matter at all?!?! Why would being a programmer and website developer rather than a sociologist nor a psychologist disqualify someone from being an expert in the field of Autism? ...
Because he (apparently) has no officially recognized formal training in autistic studies, and it is fallacious to consider an expert in one field to automatically be an expert in any other field.
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Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam - also known as: argument from authority, appeal to false authority, argument from false authority, et cetera). Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument.
Source: This article on the "Logically Fallacious" website

I go one step further, I don't give a damn about ethos (authority) because I've seen too many people that were "authority" not measure up to what they profess to know. That's why I always argue people should listen to logic, it bypasses social "truth" and gets right to the heart of the matter. If the logic makes sense then it's most likely valid, if not that it's most likely invalid. If someone says it's "invalid" purely because they are an "authority" my immediate concern is testing how much of an authority they truly are on the subject at hand. If the words coming out of their mouth have logic attached to them and it validates then I'll accept their "authority", but if they start using social games and speech techniques to obfusticate and move away from logic, well that tells me they aren't an authority so much as someone that merely wants to be seen as one.



aspiesavant
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17 Apr 2016, 2:29 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
LGBT is the umbrella of both groups you mention. That group has between 8-13% of the overall U.S. population (if you're in another country, can't help you because I don't know, but I'd assume it's about the same).


The official numbers were much lower before it became "cool" to be LGBT.


Aristophanes wrote:
Autistics are <2% of the population, we don't have the numbers, thus we don't have the power to effectively argue for change.


I'm pretty sure the official numbers would be much higher if we can get ASS to become as "cool" as being gay. Anyway, there's still millions of people with ASD out there who're in denial or who never cared to get a diagnosis because they "fit in" just good enough not to get a decent job and have a normal social life (whatever that means).

Aristophanes wrote:
We can scream and shout all we want, but we're so small nobody is forced to listen and thus they don't care


A single transgender celebrity like Bruce Jenner has more impact on public opinion than thousands if not millions of unknown transgenders.

Much the same way, we need just one or two likable, openly Autistic celebrities to become the poster children for the Autistic community as a whole.

Aristophanes wrote:
Nietzsche is correct. Unfortunately that never changes, even when one points it out. That's because humans don't care a damn about "truth", they care about power: thus power will overrule truth every single time.


So it's up to us to empower ourselves, just like other once disenfranchised groups have done before us.

Aristophanes wrote:
Again, Mead represented the women's right movement...the "small group of thoughtful, committed citizens" she's talking about are literally over half the population.


Women are half the population.
Feminists are but a fraction of that population.
Influential feminists are but a fraction of that fraction.

Aristophanes wrote:
Nice sentiment, but also untrue.


You have no idea to which degree the masses can be and have been manipulated by a tiny group of people, for the last century or so.

Aristophanes wrote:
If you're trying to move people from their instincts to something logical and productive the charade tends to only last a short time before old behaviors crop back up.


You can't move people from their instincts to something logical. However, you can manipulate their instincts towards good just like you can manipulate them towards evil.

Aristophanes wrote:
Augustus Caesar's reign is a prime example of this: through pure power Augustus established a strong moral code in Rome that actually worked...until he died and the power wasn't there to keep s**t up to shoe level thus it all fell into the decaying Rome we know today.


"For in the long run systems of government are not maintained by the pressure of force, but by faith in their soundness and in the truthfulness with which they represent and advance the interests of a people."

That's a quote by Adolf Hitler. Even he understood that not force but faith is the best way to get a large population behind you.

Aristophanes wrote:
Power is the only thing that matters, all other things are merely tools to acquire power or tools to defend it-- that's not just limited to weapons, it includes ideologies, academics, literally everything.


Then we must empower ourselves... or at least seek alliances with those who have true power...



aspiesavant
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17 Apr 2016, 2:40 pm

Fnord wrote:
it is fallacious to consider an expert in one field to automatically be an expert in any other field.


It's fallacious to consider it relevant whether a source is an expect in any field.

If I had a dollar for every time I've known a so-called "expert" to make a mistake in whatever field they're supposed to be an "expert" in, I'd be rich by now.

Much the same way, I can't keep track of the many times I've known supposed laymen to express gems of wisdom far beyond anything I've read from so-called "experts".

I support what's in that article because everything said in their corresponds with my own research, which is all that matters to me...



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17 Apr 2016, 2:46 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
It's not just "different" if we're not being adequately being accommodated and are stuck in isolation.


We live in a society designed by and for Neurotypicals.
One might argue as well that Neurotypicals are disabled because they're ill-suited for a society designed by and for Autistic people.


Neurotypicals are by definition not disabled. They are the functional ones who have found success. If autistic people were the most functional we would be the ones who made the world the way it is. So in this world, autism is a disability. Sure our way of thinking may be of use to the whole. We are more tuned in to detail, visual and auditory. But, for myself, I am not functional. I don't make the whole greater. I am disabled and that's okay. We are lucky, and here, Aristophanes, I disagree with you, that neurotypical civilization is kind.



aspiesavant
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17 Apr 2016, 2:51 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Neurotypicals are by definition not disabled. They are the functional ones who have found success.


Are they?

How many of them are totally stressed out?
How many are on anti-depressants?
How many are addicted to Ritalin, Adderall, caffeine or some other kind of stimulant?
How many of them commit suicide every year?

Just because they're the majority and set the norm, that doesn't mean they're sane or healthy.

androbot01 wrote:
If autistic people were the most functional we would be the ones who made the world the way it is. So in this world, autism is a disability.


Image



androbot01
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17 Apr 2016, 2:57 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
Neurotypicals are by definition not disabled. They are the functional ones who have found success.


Are they?

How many of them are totally stressed out?
How many are on anti-depressants?
How many are addicted to Ritalin, Adderall, caffeine or some other kind of stimulant?
How many of them commit suicide every year?

Maybe disorders are more common than once thought?

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Just because they're the majority and set the norm, that doesn't mean they're sane or healthy.

Nope, but they are the more successful.



aspiesavant
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17 Apr 2016, 3:00 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Nope, but they are the more successful.


Not always!

Here's another excerpt from Why the Tech Industry Needs More Autism on the advantages of Autism and the correlation between Autism and genius :

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Advantages of Autism

People with Autism often have exceptional memories, and can remember information they read weeks ago. They are also less likely to misremember something.

People with Autism often outperform others in auditory and visual tasks, and also do better on non-verbal tests of intelligence. In one study by Mottron, on a test that involved completing a visual pattern, people with autism finished 40 percent faster than those without the condition.

People with Autism often notice details other people don’t notice. Rather than starting with an overview and then zooming in on the details, the mind of the Autistic person goes the other way around. They collect detail after detail and will zoom out to an overview only after they’ve gathered enough details to come to a conclusion.

People with Autism are often non-conformists. They don’t follow the crowd. They look at a problem devoid of political or religious conventionality and pressure. They think out of the box and often come up with ideas no one else in their environment had thought of before.

People with Autism often have a strong ability in fields like science and technology (superior Paleomammalian complex) or fields like art and design (superior Reptilian complex). As a consequence, Autistic people are found among our best programmers, scientists, engineers, inventors, designers and artists.

People with Autism often are extremely honest and very passionate about the things they enjoy. They tend to have a strong interest in solving problems in their areas of interest for their own sake, independent of monetary reward.

People with Autism often have the ability to hyperfocus on a single task for many hours straight. While hyperfocusing, their mind is exclusively focused on that particular task.

Note that not all of these traits are present in every person with Autism, however they are all very commonly found within the Autistic community at large.

Autism and genius

Some of the world’s greatest engineers, programmers, scientists and artists are known to have been Autistic or believed to have been Autistic.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart reportedly had repeated facial expressions and unintentional constant motion of his hands and feet It was also believed that Mozart’s hearing was very sensitive and intense and loud sounds made him feel physically sick. Other reports indicate that he was excessively active. Mozart was unable to carry on an intellectual conversation and existed in a careless and reckless way with impolite and frequent mood changes. It is reported that one day, Mozart was particularly bored and jumped up and hurdled over tables and chairs, meowed like a cat and did somersaults. Mozart’s letters indicated a presence of echolalia. Together, these characteristics seem to point to the conclusion that Mozart most likely had some form of Autism.

Isaac Newton was very quiet and not very good at ‘small talk’, or typical day to day conversations. He was extraordinarily focused on his work and had a hard time breaking away. He was often so focused that he forgot to eat during these times of intense focus. He was not good at keeping or making friends as he did not appear friendly, nor did he know how to talk with individuals he did consider to be friends. He also relied strongly upon routines. For example, if he had been scheduled to give a lecture, that lecture was going to happen whether there was an audience or not. Together, these characteristics seem to point to the conclusion that Newton most likely had some form of Autism.

Charles Darwin was a solitary child, and even as he grew to be an adult, avoided interaction with people as much as he could. He wrote letters often, but did not often partake in face-to-face communication. Writing letters was his preferred means of communication. He collected many things and was very intrigued by chemistry and gadgets. He was a very visual thinker as well as a rather obsessive-compulsive and ritualistic man. Together, these characteristics seem to point to the conclusion that Darwin most likely had some form of Autism.

Michelangelo had obsessional behavior, a fiery temper, and the propensity to be a loner. He had a single-minded work routine, unusual lifestyle, limited interests, poor social and communication skills. He was obsessive and followed repetitive routines. If he did not follow these routines, it would create great frustration. He has been described as strange, without affect, and isolated, as well as being “preoccupied with his own private reality.” Together, these characteristics seem to point to the conclusion that Michelangelo most likely had some form of Autism.

Nikola Tesla was a foremost inventor and engineer, more brilliant by far than his contemporary Edison, who ultimately exploited him and stole many of his ideas. Known as a very eccentric person, Tesla harbored a crippling series of phobias, maintained his celibacy, had a sensitivity to light and sound, and was intensely focused on numbers (especially the number three — he wouldn’t stay in a room whose number was not divisible by three). He was very soft spoken, but could be nasty in defense of his strange beliefs. While generally reclusive and fanatically driven by his work, he could grandstand and was good friends with Mark Twain in his middle years. As he aged, he became even more bizarre, ultimately earning the derision of the scientific community and dying alone in a hotel room, nearly penniless. Together, these characteristics seem to point to the conclusion that Tesla most likely had some form of Autism.

Bill Gates is the co-founder of Microsoft, and frequently tops the list of the richest people in the world. The only living entrant on my list, Gates exhibited a marked technical acumen from youth — his computer programming skills and attention to detail were remarkable, and he racked up an almost perfect score on the SATs. He has a distinct rocking motion when he is concentrating, a clipped monotone speech pattern, and has developed a reputation for being distant, avoiding eye contact, and lashing out at subordinates when he is displeased. Together, these characteristics seem to point to the conclusion that Gates most likely has some form of Autism.

Note that this list is far from complete. In fact, it’s but the tip of the iceberg.

Source



TheAP
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17 Apr 2016, 3:05 pm

Yes, people with autism often have gifts. But that doesn't change the fact that they are disabled in many ways too.



androbot01
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17 Apr 2016, 3:06 pm

It's nice that some autistics are tech savvy. However this is not the great dream of the autistic. I am only mildly tech savvy, so I cannot reap the benefits of this wave.



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17 Apr 2016, 3:33 pm

i think autism is a disorder.but if one has a disorder why not celibrate it in some way.hell,might as well right


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17 Apr 2016, 5:02 pm

Autism is a disorder. I rely on the experts in the mental health field to inform me of that. They, and not the hackers, are the experts.

I am an electrical engineer. My MSEE gives me no expertise in the mental health field; but it does give me both expertise and a good reputation in systems design and analysis, computer and controller programming, telecommunications, radar and radio principles, data-base management and cryptology, higher maths, and general troubleshooting.

People skills? I wasn't hired for my people skills. I get paid for applying the skills that having earned an MSEE imply. My management assistant was hired for her people skills, and she applies them on my behalf.

What the tech industry really needs is more people (like me) who have learned the fundamentals first by getting their hands dirty diassembling twenty-year old technology and reassembling it so that it works ... more people who design, install, and maintain their own security systems ... more people who earned their first amateur radio licenses while they were still in grammar school ... more people who interned in TV studios ... more people who can handle a telco punch-down tool without breaking the backplane ... more people who can solder two wires together without burning the insulation ... more people who can write technical reports with proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation ... more people who received military training in a technical field that requires hands-on preventive maintenance ...

In other words, what the tech industry really needs is more people who have actually earned their degrees, rather than relying solely on their arrogant personalities to browbeat others into believing that they know more than they actually do!



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17 Apr 2016, 10:10 pm

Jacoby wrote:
This is a bad article, I get the point of trying to boost your self-esteem and to make yourself feel like a special snowflake but Autism in my experience is definitely a "disorder" and in my opinion a disability. It's not just "different" if we're not being adequately being accommodated and are stuck in isolation. I don't have any super special aspie savant skills.


This^^^^^

If ASD is NOT a disorder, school districts, insurance companies and social services would be all over it. Good bye special ed and therapies. Good bye filing for disability payments. There are many people who would just love ASD be considered *normal*, school districts and health insurance especially. There is no bigger money pit pay out than for ASD therapies.

Yeah..the mod/severe will still get a few token bones tossed their way. Level 1..welp...no disorder, no help needed.

Be careful what you wish for...good bye work accommodations too...

While I get this guy's point, that is certainly not how NT's will run with it.



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17 Apr 2016, 10:14 pm

The general consensus in this thread seems to be that the claims made in the articles by John Slegers are bogus, that autism is definitely a disorder, and that Mr. Slegers was merely expressing his subjective opinion.



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17 Apr 2016, 11:46 pm

Just because a disability comes with perks and advantages doesn't make it any less of a disability. People with no arms can fit into smaller spaces, blind people have a better sense of hearing, and deaf people cannot be distracted by sounds and are better at lip reading. Should these not be considered disabilities because of this? Of course not. Just like all of those other things, autistic people often need special accommodations in order to get by in society, and few people will give these accommodations to someone if they have no disorder or disability behind it. It wouldn't be a disability if everyone was like that, but the same can be said for any other disability including the ones mentioned above.

I would sort of understand if you said that Asperger's or level 1 autism is not a disability because I believed that for a while (which is largely what the "In denial that it was a problem until 2016" in my forum signature is all about). However, you said that autism in general is not a disability and there are severely autistic people who can't verbally communicate at all. If that's not a disability then I don't know what is.


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18 Apr 2016, 2:38 am

The following are excerpts from Autism doesn't have to be viewed as a disability or disorder :

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Autism may represent the last great prejudice we, as a society, must overcome. History is riddled with examples of intolerance directed at the atypical. We can sometime fear that which diverges from the “norm”, and sometimes that fear leads us to frame those who are different as being in some way lesser beings than ourselves.
Quote:
Autism is framed as a disability, with mainstream theories presenting autism via deficit models. Popular theory is often passed off as fact with no mention of the morphic nature of research and scientific process. Most mainstream theory is silent regarding autistic strengths and atypical ability; indeed, what is in print often presents a damning image of autism as an “epidemic”. Hurtful words such as risk, disease, disorder, impairment, deficit, pedantic, obsession are frequently utilised.
Quote:
A common misconception around autism is that it is inextricably linked to intellectual disability. However, many of the world’s great thinkers and innovators displayed autistic characteristics. “Autism and intellectual disability often occur together in clinical settings, and this has made many researchers think that the conditions must share the same genetic causes. Our research challenges this assumption,” says Dr Rosa Hoekstra, lecturer in psychology at the Open University, who led a recent study which found that the genes for autism are distinct from those for learning disabilities. Autistic people exhibit a range of intellectual ability, including exceptional intellect. An obvious cause of this discrepancy is that very intellectually able people are less likely to be diagnosed. Furthermore, some diagnosticians actively withhold diagnoses in those deemed to be coping.